Games The 25th SWC/EUC Starfighter Draft: Old Enough to Have Death Sticks (Congrats ma_petite!)

Yeah, well, again "extensive history of flying in successful attacks" is bluster for when we are creating teams, where is the actual experience and feats for what Wexley did before TFA? I've been reading on him most of the past day, I've found nothing. So while "extensive history of flying in successful attacks" sounds nice, there is really nothing at all to back it up.

Not sure how you can even lean on that anyway, it's fairly obvious it wasn't an argument that any judge would normally put any stock into. If the strongest argument for Wexley is the empty bluster I posted before matches began then that seems extremely weak.

What we actually know of Wexley is that he's pretty much done nothing before TFA, that is canon. There isn't even reputation references as to him participating in anything, just that he was in training for a long time and then all of a sudden he is participating in the TFA events.

Not really. Canon tells us that Garven was active in almost all of the early Alliance battles, we don't know how many he shot down or where those battles were....but we at least know they happened and that Garven was commanding Squadrons during those events....we also know that he is responsible for training many of the first Rogues. That isn't reputation, reputation is "Dreis was one of the greatest of his time", knowing that he was a significant factor in the early Alliance and has participation in most of those early battles goes beyond reputation.

What do we know about Wexley as a pilot before Starkiller Base? Next to nada. 90% of what we know about Wex is reputation, there is not a single reference to him doing anything of note before TFA.

Yeah, well when Snap is able to survive a trench run with Vader on his tail let me know. Wex's measuring stick falls significantly short of the impossibility of a trench run against Vader.

Not sure how that matters. We know Wedge has high regard for Dreis, we see this when Wedge renames Rogue Squadron to Red Squadron for the Battle of Endor/Deathstar II in honor of Dreis and Biggs who fell in the attack on Deathstar I. We know Biggs has high regard for Dreis. We know Luke even has high regard for Dreis. We know that half of Rogue Squadron has high regard for the man who selected and trained them, that man is Dreis.

If it wasn't for the short amount of Wex's flashy screen time in TFA, would we even know who he is?

 

you realizing you're fighting this hard over two low-level picks just so, best case, you can get pwned in teams, right?

 

My team gets pwned in teams? Odd statement but ok then, I guess, vote Wex.

 

Snap also has a pretty fantastic showing in the ongoing Poe Dameron comic set before the events of TFA. So starkiller base isn't his only showing.

Evil.

 

What did he do? I found nothing, so adding that to what we know for TFA he has what.....2 or 3 battles to his name? I am struggling to see how that tops a lifelong pilot with a career like Garven's.

If you guys are already decided on voting against me in teams though it doesn't matter, whatever.

 

I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I don't know that I see any team beating Heels in teams. Plus, I did say I was voting Jaina over Wedge. Which takes away one of the advantages you'd have in a hypothetical team battle. But, much like Jed Bartlett, I am a lifelong holder of minority opinions.

 

Heated? This isn't heated. Oh man, I miss the days of heated exchanges and multi page debates. Those were exciting draft times, now we almost ever argue anything.

 

*fire emoji* x3

 

To be honest, it just sounds like it's being suggested to not bother arguing for your pilots or team....and if you do argue for them just like you've always done then people think it's getting heated.

If Dreis and Wex (two brand new to the Draft pilots who are a fairly solid battle) aren't worthy of an argument, and if Mighty Wings Deux vs Wedge Salad (nothing about that battle is a pwn on either side) isn't worthy of an argument.....then we've completely removed most of the fun of Drafts after the selection phase. We used to go on for pages about this stuff, far more heated than anything we've seen in the past few drafts, what is happening for Dreis v Wex isn't even close to being heated.

As to the Wedge vs Jaina thing, yeah I heard it....and I think it's a huge vote to make without any kind of explanation. I'm not sure why at this point, long after any new pilot info has been released on her, she suddenly becomes better than Wedge. Then to just use that to shut the door on the last individual matches and what would be a very close teams without thinking it would need any arguments? It's just kind of confusing and frustrating.

Anyway, rant over. Carry on. Arguments done.

 

I can give a little bit more on snap off the top of my head, but I'd need to dig out the comics to really go in depth on it.

First up, he had an entire mission where Poe ran off and did Poe things while Snap was left in charge of the blacks. On this mission they were forbidden from firing on First Order vessels and essentially had to just run evasion while waiting for Poe to finish his part of the mission. This equated to probably a good hour to an hour and a half of evasive flying while Poe was doing his thing. I give it a wide gap because telling time in comics isn't an exact science unless they're constantly referencing it.

Second, Him and a couple of the Blacks had to protect the shuttle of Grakkus the Hutt from what appeared to be some sort of First Order dreadnought while still keeping to the "no fire" order given by Leia. Of course they ended up breaking that order and shooting the dreadnought dead in space.

He has a few more battle under his belt from the comics as well, but I'm not as keen on those at the moment.

Evil.

 

By all means, argue away on this one. I like a good argument. Build up your pilot, he's a new one to the draft. I was mostly making a side reference that if it went to teams, for me, it was a done deal. That was mostly in response to your argument of "vote for my guy, so it goes to teams" that I'm certain was tongue-in-cheek.

Meh. If it mattered, I would have explained. As it is, it was already 2-1 for Wedge. I haven't judged a SFD in quite a while, so I've never been able to give my thoughts on Peak Jaina. So, it's not that I'm elevating her despite no new material.

 

I for one would love to hear your thoughts on Jaina, Inty.

Evil.

 

Guys, Dreis isn't new

 

I've long put Wedge near the bottom, individually, of the "top tier pilots". I'm not denying how great he is. He's probably the best in terms of individual talent + building a cohesive team + Squadron Leadership. But, as an individual, in a 1-on-1 dogfight, those last two don't mean much of anything. I'd always, consistently, put Vader, Luke, and Anakin higher.

Jaina, however, has shown a consistent ability to infuse natural piloting ability with her deep connection to the Force. Whether during the Vong Crisis, the Dark Nest Crisis, the Second Galactic Civil War - she was enjoying a long career, not just as a Jedi, but also in the cockpit. And not in the same fashion as the prequel-era Jedi, who were Jedi that just happened to also fly. She demonstrates the ability to gun down, to avoid, to use stealth. There's nothing Wedge has demonstrated in the cockpit that Jaina hasn't also demonstrated.

To me, Jaina has become and demonstrated herself to be, much closer to Luke in this draft than anyone else.

 

The Rae Sloane is Awesome and You're Not Conference

Wedge Salad (1) vs Mighty Wings! Part Deux! (3)

#5. Garven Dreis vs Temmin "Snap" Wexley - I went back and forth on this one. Despite Mika's bluster in the drafting stage, I find his argument compelling here.
#2. Jhoram Bey TRUMPED with Anj Dahl (FORFEIT) vs Bror Jace
#7. Keyan Farlander vs Lowbacca TRUMPED with Tesar Sebatyne (FORFEIT)
#4. Kyp Durron vs L'ulo

The Last Death Sticks (2) vs Scarif Saboteurs (2)

#5. Tyria Sarkin vs Ahsoka Tano
#2. Horton Salm vs Plo Koon
#7. Luke Skywalker vs Cade Skywalker
#4. Edor Crespin vs Anakin Solo

Takes One to Rogue One (4) vs Syndullas Finest (0)

#5. Syal Antilles vs Boba Fett
#2. Ooryl Qyrgg vs Leia Organa
#7. Alinn Varth vs Hera Syndulla
#4. Shara Bey vs Fenn Rau -

The Blue Leader's Moustache Memorial Conference


Harry Caray All Stars (4) vs Jawaharlal Padme (0)

#5. Nym TRUMPED with Ben Skywalker (FORFEIT) vs BoShek -
#2. Jagged Fel vs Tahiri Veila
#7. Nial Declann TRUMPED with Imperial Ace (FORFEIT) vs Poe Dameron -
#4. Kasan Moor vs Anni Capstan

Because I was Inverted (2) vs A Sighted Apostle (2)

#5. Riv Shiel TRUMPED with Jon "Dutch" Vander vs Rhysati Ynr
#2. Jon "Dutch" Vander TRUMPED with Riv Shiel (FORFEIT) vs Wes Janson
#7. Shawnkyr Nuruodo vs Broak Vessery
#4. Gavin Darklighter vs Jacen Solo

Hit 'Em With The Hein (0) vs Traitors and Double Agents: what team are we playing for? (4)

#5. Octa Ramis vs Baron Soontir Fel
#2. Gunn Yage vs Lumiya -
#7. Zev Senesca vs Alema Rar
#4. Ace Azzameen vs Mara Jade Skywalker

 

You do know me well, also sorry if any of my last postings came across as me being an arse. Wasn't intended that way.

Still going to argue Wedge over Jaina btw.

PS: Hope you all had a great Easter.

 

Going old school Heels.
This hearkens back to the career pilot vs jedi pilot debates of the earlier drafts, good stuff. Just one post though, won't rebutt because I already put too much time into this. Will let Heels have the last word.

Wedge Salad (4) vs Mighty Wings! Part Deux! (4)

Wedge Antilles, Kyp Durron, Keyan Farlander, Jhoram Bey, Anj Dahl, Dash Rendar, Zekk, Garvin Dreis
vs
Jaina Solo, Corran Horn, Saba Sebatyne, Tesar Sebatyne, Lowbacca, Bror Jace, Snap Wexley, L'ulo

Cohesion: Cohesion isn't all that far off really, definitely not as drastic as it seems at first. MW is obvious, so let's look at what is opposing it.

Wedge has flown with all except Bey and Dahl. Kyp has flown with all except the Legacy trump, Dash, and Garvin. Keyan has flown with all except the Legacy trump, Dash, and POSSIBLY Garvin. See where I am going? Cohesion is all over the place here.

Now let's extend that cohesion thought a moment, what do most of these people have in common? Rouge Squadron. Wedge, Keyan, Jhoram, Anj, Garvin, even Dash have all flown Rogue. The Legacy duo will most surely have studied in depth much of what Wedge (at the least) would have done. If anything Jhoram and Anj bring advanced tactics to the game, and will probably be able to utilize their (presumed) knowledge of earlier Rogue tactics to surprise the opposing team.

The two Jedi I have also know mind meld as well, in addition to good cohesion any. Keyan is also force sensitive, and let's not forget that he is in fact a Jedi Knight that was trained by Luke, and he was also an instructor for the Jedi.

Good time to remember that there are drawbacks to melding. One of those pilots dying could cause some chaos, or a lack of unified objectives (which isn't hard to see in this kind of fight, it's going to be organized chaos) will definitely cause that meld to slip or even worse could throw all of the pilots into disorder mentally.

It's not without risk, though if we are being honest, there are probably no better squad to neutralize that risk than MW. That's kind of their thing.

Ask yourself this....given all the decades of Wedge and Keyan flying together, do you think they are any less cohesive than melding Jedi? Are Kyp and Zekk any less cohesive than melding Jedi? Are Bey and Dahl any less cohesive than melding Jedi? Pretty much all around, the answer is no.

Anyway, there just isn't a massive gap in cohesion. Wedge Salad is very solid.....MW is just freaky.....but they are still in the same ballpark.

That said, we all know cohesion isn't everything.

Experience: No question about it, Wedge Salad considerably. I have 4 commanders of Rogue or the predecessor Red Squadron (Wedge, Bey, Anj, Dreis). Keyan has around 40 years of participation in most of the critical battles we know of. Kyp has no shortage of years in a cockpit, been flying since before Jaina was born and also participated in many of the critical battles in the NJO era. I would count Dash and Zekk among my least experienced of the team, and that is crazy if you consider how much experience they each have.

I have a team of proven survivors, most of which live or die in a cockpit alone. The Jedi by comparison spend a fraction of their time, even Jaina, when compared to career pilots who many of which literally have decades of history participating in some of the most dangerous battles and missions that we know of in SW.

Skill: Raw skill, Wedge Salad, for sure. This is all they do, day in and day out, at least most of them. To these 4 on the team...Wedge, Keyan, Bey, Dahl...then also Dries? That's bonkers from a skill perspective. The guy who built what turned into Rogue Squadron, 3 combat hardened commanders of Rogue Squadron, and a guy with 40 years of flying/training.

Then line up the pilots and look

Wedge >= Jaina : Maybe there isn't much, if anything that Wedge has done that Jaina hasn't. However Wedge will have been there/done that many times more, without the advantage of mind melding Jedi on his wing to increase his odds of survival. Out of 10 fights, I'd see Wedge taking 6-7 of them, it's not that there is no way to imagine Jaina winning....the question is can anyone really say that she would ever beat Wedge most, if even half, of the time?

I don't see that.

Kyp < Horn : I don't necessarily think this is a blowout, they are almost always picked within about 3-4 spots of each other for a reason. Kyp has almost as much time flying as Horn, he's got no shortage of intense battle experience. Probably even could add a =, but good enough.

Keyan > Saba : Saba ain't bad at all, but she doesn't have anything close to what Keyan has in terms of experience or skill....not in my book at any rate.

Bey >= Lowbacca : I think the melding junk is the only way Low/Tesar got the bump on the Legacy duo, I don't see how 1 on 1 Lowbacca beats Bey though. If you line it up one one one, Bey is better.

Dahl >= Tesar : Same as Bey in my opinion.

Dash > Bror: Bror is good, but it seems that Dash would win this fairly consistently.

Garven > Wex : We already know that this went to Garven

Zekk > L'ulo : Easily.

I have the better pilots in most rounds, at least if you are looking at how one on one they stack up.

Intangibles: The Force. Definitely, the elephant in the room. Even though MW is lacking when it comes to overall skill and experience, the Force is the putty that makes it all look shiny and nice. It works, but again there are points it backfires and isn't helpful.

However I do feel there is another intangible at play in this match. Rogue training. Garven trained most of what became the Rogues...including Wedge for a time, Wedge trained.....well.....everyone.....including Keyan. Bey and Dahl will most likely be using, or at the least studying, early Rogue tactics. Just as MW has 5 tight Jedi with kung fu action, I also have a lot of Rogue training to bring my pilots closer in terms of ability to enhance each others chances of survival.

I think Kyp and Zekk have even flown with Rogues, so it's not like they are unfamiliar at all with what is going on here.

With all the years of flying Wedge and Keyan have together it seems likely that they'd have the same instincts about each others flying that a meld gives to Jedi. After 40 years? I don't see it as out of the realm of imagination to think they, at this point, can basically read each other in flight. Bey and Dahl? They are pretty much always right next to each other in the comics, they would be instinctively reading each other as well.

My team does also have the Force, it's worth not forgetting that I have 3 extremely good Jedi pilots on my team in addition to the 3 Rogue Squadron commanders (and Dries).

So intangibles? Yeah it leans to MW, but if anything it serves to compensate for the large Skill and Experience deficit rather than creating a mountain that isn't able to be overcome.


Summary: Cohesion and Intangibles go to MW, but honestly cohesion goes to MW because of the intangibles.....interrupt the meld you have problems. Cohesion isn't all that huge of a gap, I have a lot of pilots who have actually flown together, a lot, and have some meld action, and a lot of familiar training/tactics to bring it all together.

Skill and experience go to WS, experience both in time flying and kinds of missions...as well as constant level of difficulty (Rogues are elite, remember). Hard to really give the opposing team an experience edge of any kind, the deficit for MW is rather huge. Skill as well, I've got 4 of the most skilled pilots you can have in my Rogue commanders and Keyan. Dries is obviously no slouch, at all, having essentially trained many of the the first Rogues. Kyp, easily more skilled than all but 2 of the opposing team.

This is as close to a coin flip as things get, but for as good as the Force can be for a pilot it's hard to overcome such huge gaps in the actual pilot experience and skill I have in my ranks. The gaps I have in force are mitigated, at least a bit, by my own pilots melding and all that Rogue/Rebellion fighter pilot training that ties my own team together.