Senate The 2nd Term of the Obama Administration: Facts, Opinions, and Discussions

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    @Mr44 , I agree with a lot of your concerns and was not happy with the law when it passed, not because I thought the current system was sustainable, but because I felt that Obama caved too much and that the public option should have remained on the table, or as Thom Hartmann says, Medicare Part E--E meaning "everybody." '

    I first got pissed off at Obama regarding this issue when he cut a deal with Big Pharma to get them on his side.

    But I don't know what "scrapping the entire thing and starting over" would look like.
  2. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    Please - for once - can you save me the "if you weren't such a partisan you could see that it's entirely Obama's fault" pitch? It's nauseating.

    Does it have it's flaws? Yes. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Should it be a work-in-progress? Yes. Maybe your side should take some of that advice, eh?
    Last edited by shinjo_jedi, Sep 17, 2013
  3. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    I'm surprised it took this long.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think he made a pretty strong point. The fact that the unions are coming out against this law is a pretty big deal.
  5. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    Not every organization is going to approve - that's nothing new.

    And the primary point of my post is how obnoxious it is when 44 comes in, whines about someone being a blind partisan for blaming the GOP, then explains how it's really all Obama's fault. :rolleyes:
  6. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    Also, 44, can we revisit that whole Republicans-shutting-down-the-government if they can't get their pipe dream of defunding Obamacare (three years after it legally passed)? Because Boehner and Cantor are now going all in on it.
  7. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Except my point is that it's everyone in government's fault, not just the President, or Congress, or any single party. You're the one who comes in, always blames the "GOP" as some sort of faceless entirety, and then lashes out when I ask what about all the other parts of government. It just seems like I'm blaming Obama because I offer a counterpoint to your en bloc statement. See, there is, and always has been a difference between making specific assertions. Look at Anakinfan, or others for example, even though they disagree with me. (and yet there is common ground between us as well) That's called a debate. Yes, I believe this entire law was rushed because of the President. Yes, I believe that Congress caved to that to get it passed. But the problems are specific to the law, not which party the President belonged to when it was passed.

    Shinjo: I wonder what all the GOP is going to do when they are proven wrong again, as they always are just because they're republicans.
    Me: Well, there are left groups against this too, because it has a lot of flaws, for example, the labor union's concerns...
    Shinjo: YOU JERK! By disagreeing with me, you're just as partisan as I am....
    Me: I think you're missing the point.

    If you look at my posts, I've said all sorts of times that universal healthcare should be looked at. It's a noble goal for government. But not in this form. It needs more scrutiny, even if it takes a couple of years to get right. But not every "republican" thinks the same way, no different than anyone from the democrats.
    J-Rod likes this.
  8. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    Your post - and nearly every other reply - literally (to quote Joe Biden) is some variance of "You're such a partisan and you only blame Republicans. See, look how everything is Obama's fault."

    Also, as for my second post, what do you think about the Republican (or, more specifically since I'm not allowed to use that word, Cantor and Boehner) pushing forward the plan to shut down the government or breach the debt ceiling if Obama won't repeal Obamacare. I believe I got complained at for bringing it up last time...so...
  9. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    We all have the pipeline to the Founding Fathers. Just some people like to ignore them.
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The assumption that only conservatives understand what the Founders really wanted or what the Constitution is really about is absurd at best, not to mention an attempt to shut down debate with the idea that the conservative interpretation of the Constitution is the only "correct" one and anyone who disagrees needs to just STFU.
    Valairy Scot and Jedi Merkurian like this.
  11. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Last edited by Jabbadabbado, Sep 18, 2013
  12. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    The fiscal fights are back. Nothing new, except for this.

    It's an unlikely scenario, but still scary stuff, especially the House GOP reps who think that "nothing will happen" if we breach the borrowing limit and that a default will only occur if "Obama chooses it to."

    The interest-payment assertion is pure nonsense; Standard and Poor's has already said that if the US misses a singly payment to any creditor, even by a day, they will downgrade America's rating to junk. It might take that to get people to wake up and realize just how dangerous the Tea Party is, but by that point, it will be too late: the damage will have been done.

    Even if a default leads to a major budget deal, world markets will roil, and interest rates will spike, putting the US likely into a depression and exploding the national debt. Worst case, the dollar collapses completely, but that is a doomsday scenario. What people may not realize is that once it happens, markets may not recover for years; Congress finally acting after a default likely won't restore investor confidence, and certainly not the ones of institutional investors.

    I almost feel sorry for John Boehner. Almost. Oh wait, no I don't. He should be marginalzing the Tea Party; instead, he's embraced them, and by doing so, has allowed the Democrats to run Washington.

    Peace,

    V-03
    Last edited by Vaderize03, Sep 18, 2013
    shinjo_jedi and Jedi Merkurian like this.
  13. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    To add to your excellent points V03, a technical default doesn't even ever have to occur to disrupt the markets. As we all know (but the House GOP seems to not) is that finance/credit is rooted in psychology and confidence and even the appearance of a possible default will throw the markets into chaos.

    I also don't understand the PR around blaming Obama if there is a default. The House GOP is 1/3 of the bodies needed to approve the budget. So it's not their fault if the other 2 won't agree to what they want to do (and this is beside the fact that it's a law passed 3 years ago)?
    Last edited by shinjo_jedi, Sep 18, 2013
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  14. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Yep. That pretty much sums it up.

    It's easy to ignore the facts when you live in a parallel universe where no-one ever disagrees with you.

    And I appreciate the shout-out :).
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    So, I looked at how Obamacare will affect me and mine.

    I get paid once a month so that's how often insurance payments are deducted. My premiums for 80/20 coverage for myself and my kids, same coverage I currently have, will increase a whopping twenty cents.

    Plus I'm not positive about this but I think my hypertension medicine is now free as it's considered preventative. My costs for Singulair and my inhaler are the same.

    Open enrollment is in a couple of weeks and I actually have several more plan choices now.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Haven't you heard? The American people are against it, at least according to FOX.

    You and I do not exist.
  17. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Oh we exist, but breaching the debt ceiling will make us magically disappear.

    Then FOX and Friends can come in and take over.

    Peace,

    V-03
  18. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    I still wake up every morning, read Playbook, and can't seem to fathom how utterly absurd this hostage situation is.
    Vaderize03 and Jedi Merkurian like this.
  19. DARTH-FURBABY Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 2
    No one cares - PG mod edit
    Last edited by Point Given, Sep 28, 2013
  20. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    Well, the truth is getting revealed. The Affordable Care Act isn't more affordable that what was offered before. And millions of people who liked their old plan are being forced out. President Obama: Stupid or Liar?
  21. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Neither.

    The correct term is: naive.
    ShaneP likes this.
  22. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    But that would imply that he didn't have the experience to be the president! Which is hard to believe given all the community organizing he was known for!
  23. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    So what does that mean to you exactly, V? Has he always been so naïve, and it's just coming to light now, into his second term? (an unlikely reality) Or is it just another excuse in a changing bag of excuses? How is he so naïve? Because he put a major campaign contributor as primary contractor for the enrollment website even though it wasn't capable of handling the technical aspect? It's like Solyndra part II, but with the frequency that such things happen with this administration, it's actually part V or VI..... But such practice never seems to receive scrutiny, despite the fact that hundreds of millions, if not billions of tax dollars have been wasted. I wouldn't say he is naïve, but he most definitely represents the "Chicago Way" of patronage-based politics to the point where I think Obama keeps supporting his friends/backers and turns a blind eye to everything else going on. I guess in a way, that is naïve, but then it assumes that everyone else is controlling his puppet strings, which doesn't fit with his image.

    See, the issue now is that this entire fiasco is playing right into the republican's hands. At the very least, it shows that they were correct with their major concerns, but the administration was too stubborn to listen. Obviously, the wisdom of forcing a shutdown to air those concerns had negative connotations, which smacked the GOP squarely in the face, but this shows exactly why it's not just one parties fault, and it takes two to tango in government. It's not about the parties, but this is exactly why you need an opposition party, and why debate among the branches of government isn't a bad thing.

    Imagine how the perception would be different now, if during the shutdown, Obama agreed to a 1 year extension like the republicans wanted and the shutdown was cut in half, or only lasted a couple of days? He would hold all the cards. This fiasco is probably going to last that long anyway, because the simple fact remains that the government is not ready to implement it because the entire thing was rushed, and the result is that the administration burned all of its bridges. Instead, now the shutdown is forgotten, every story of the health care law is negative, and just about everyone is predicting that the entire thing is going to collapse under its own weight, and it will have to be rebooted anyway. Not a good thing for a legacy issue. But I think the legacy aspect overshadowed actually making the law work.

    Just this week, Putin bumped Obama off his spot in Forbes' "most influencial people" list.....Putin, for pete's sake...and even on the list, Putin was firmly described as a modern dictator. The best thing said about Obama was that "it looks like his lame duck status started early in his second term...." It's not a stellar achievement. One could look at a long catalogue of things which the administration has lost control of- from Syria, to the spying scandal, to Iran, to the shutdown, to the health care roll-out, and I think they all illustrate why Obama is probably just going to go hide for the next 2 years, at least until the focus is moved onto Hillary Clinton or whoever else is going to run to try and take control of the ship. I'm sure he has at least a decade worth of lucrative public speaking, and for a sure a book or two to keep him going after office.
    Last edited by Mr44, Oct 30, 2013
  24. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    While I agree with much of what you've said, 44, i have to disagree with Obama hiding. He will continue to play like he is the one with the answers and blame the Republicans for his loss of control. Next up; shoving illegal immigration down our throats. The claim that the system is broken will be his battle cry. And it drives me nuts because it's not broken, it's unenforced!!!!!!!!!
  25. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Remember, please (sorry I don't have hard numbers) that while many are facing higher premiums and have to replace their current plan with another that is equally NOT true of others.

    As for myself, my premium will double.

    IF.

    If I got thru the state exchange (I make little enough to qualify), I can get the silver plan for the same price and gain some coverage - the coinsurance is a bit lower as is the deductible. (I don't get medical at work and nothing to do with the ACA: I've paid my own individual plan for 25+ years.)

    My premium increases IF I don't go thru the exchange.

    This shouldn't be a "but folks are losing coverage/paying more" oh noes, it's broke NOR should it be "stop whining, it's better for everyone."

    I'd like to see the actual breakdown for folks vs the "hand-wringing" anecdotal stories that are often less than - um - accurate.