Lit The Alderaanian Ascendancy through the ages (Free of buglove since...)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Based on the Agent of the Empire: Hard Target thread and the interest generated by Tinwe on the topic of Alderaanian politics, society and history. Thread title being from CeiranHarmony so the credit to those two for this topic. Anyway, this is just a place to talk everything about Alderaan and the Alderaanians who featured in the movies and got expanded in places such as the books and comics as well as even more in depth in The Old Republic MMO.

    So, let the discussions... commence!
  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I confess, I'm not terribly fond of Alderaan as always having been the peaceful planet. One of the cool things from the RPG was that Alderaan disarmed after the Clone Wars.

    Something that's obviously no longer canon.
  3. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    Who says that isn't canon anymore? Pello Scrambas specifically serves in the armed forces during the Clone Wars.
  4. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    oooh need to grab my notes and fill this topic asap after work!
  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    some short notes to kick it off before I get back to work:

    Alderaanian War Frigates existence indicate that Alderaan had a shipyard or at least somehow constructed selfdesigned ships in someones shipyard. They were armed during the Clone Wars, but mostly in space and onplanet only their own senatorial and royal guards or policeforce was allowed to wear arms for peacekeeping. so.. Alderaan was armed but onworld still as pacifist and weaponsfree as later on. merely in order to keep their pacifist paradise, they kept a spaceforce to keep Alderaan free from invasions. (Filoni, if you read this... don't feel tempted to do an upcoming invasion of Alderaan to proof me wrong! :p;))

    Also Alderaan's armed forces hardly were needed onworld and so trained and served offworld in other engagements most likely. Kinda like "Have our hotheaded youngsters fight their heroism off elsewhere and let them return once they saw live with their own eyes how bad war and weapons are."
    except when needed against Killiks that is.. but since TOR they are supposed to be extinct on Alderaan anyway.

    ps: I like Alderaan as Game of Thrones paralell in TOR.

    also their ties to other royal houses on Serenno and Naboo are interesting.

    well more on that later... I deem this my Alderaan source topic and will fill it with lore like I did for Hapes and others already ;) lets bring it on!
  6. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Bringing it on :p

    I know I was a bit skeptical when I heard about TOR making the Alderaanians so... violent as the movies always depicted them as a peaceful people. But, the sources are there of a previously much more aggressive society. Its mentioned in the classic adventures Graveyard of Alderaan story where it says that the Alderaanians were much more violent until they decided to adopt pacifism. So, TOR neatly fits into it since its back at a time when Alderaan suffered from aggressive political games. In fact, CeiranHarmony, this kind of slightly connects to Hapes as well. I remember in one of the novels (maybe Courtship of Princess Leia? and one of the NJO ones with Hapes) that Princess Leia says Hapan society reminded her a lot of Alderaan. Now, she most likely meant scenary and the courtly nature, but the Hapans are known to engage in the house politics that TOR Alderaan did so its a nice parallel there.

    On TOR, we know of quite a few Alderaanian houses who descended into civil war after the death of the ruling queen from Panteer. Also, not all the houses seem to be descended from the original colonists since House Rist has origins traced to the Exchange. Some other cool things I liked is TORs ties to the Killiks. Yes, I know, its a bit of a retcon since previous sources claimed that the Killiks were long gone. But, things like the Alderaanian Order of Extermination that were dedicated bughunters and had no allegiance to any individual house. So, its cool to see this big exploration of Alderaan's culture and society.

    I also find it interesting about a possible shipyard on Alderaan. However, I think its equally likely that they might have hired an external shipyard to produce their ships. Personally, I think I favour the later approach though there are certainly Alderaanian companies that manufacture some of their vehicles/equipment such as the Royal Alderaan Engineers and AlderaanMotors. Also, I quite like the idea of them training their soldiers abroad and bringing them back to defend their world.
    Last edited by Cronal, Oct 24, 2012
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  7. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    you know how to tease me with my beloved Hapans ;) more insight after work which ends... soooon
  8. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    now on to some more Alderaanian loving...
    god I am sitting in a pile of papers and files about Alderaan.. so much to post the next few days

    well..
    someone might crosspost the Alderaan relevant discussion stuff from the other topics over here if possible, meanwhile I start with this:


    Bail Prestor Organa was Senator of Alderaan and according to an old obscure source that eludes me now might have been on the finance committee or minister of finance in the Imperial Senate, while his wife, Queen Breha Organa rules Alderaan itself and served as Minister for Education on the ruling council that supported the monarchy.

    Politically speaking, Bail Organa was open minded and a good man, while at the same time standing for demilitarisation and disarming in favor of pacifism. During the Clone Wars Alderaan had armed forces that mostly served offworld or as spaceforce on Alderaanian War Frigates. Bail initiated the disarming after the Clone Wars to protect Alderaan with pacifism and posing no threat to the Emperor, something that many pacifist Alderaanians embraced and wanted anyway.
    While Bail supported Palpatine before and during the Clone Wars, after ROTS he had to keep the pro-Palpatine facade up to not feel the troubles other senators barely if at all survived in the cleansing of the senate. Bail essentially stayed loyalist in order to get intel on the Emperor and Empire as well as "survival by being closest to the enemy" strategy paired with a dangerous game of hiding in plain sight.

    Many who hated the Emperor and the Empire would come to dislike Bail for supporting it too even if we have hardly seen that. His friends who know his true motivations, Bel Iblis, Mon Mothma etc. stick with him since they know him. Others though turn their back on Bail Organa I bet and (before the TFU troublespot) Bail Organa rose to be a close friend of the Emperor and involved in important Imperial Senate committees... even if the senates power was slowly eroded by the Mofference and new laws.

    We recently learned that Alderaan's royality is friends with other royal houses of other worlds, especially Serenno's Counts of House Dooku. So from that, I assume Bail Organa played an essential role in redeeming Serenno and former separatist worlds by placing formerly living in exile nobles in power there. Alderaan was a spot many lived on that were hunted or in exile. Large refugee camps exist on Alderaan and alien colonies of various species. Largest of those Caamasi refugees.

    Also Bail Organa often had dinner and close contact with Grand Moff Tarkin and other high ranking Imperials to further show his loyality and ties to the Empire while gaining intel.

    In the Imperial Senate, I speculate, that Bail Organa hoped for many worlds to disarm themselves in order to not get targeted as a threat by the Empire, while covering it up as demilitarisation in favor of centralised Imperial military. The Alderaanian tactic.

    Bail Organa is unique among his fellow Rebel Leaders in that he alone got targeted for death by the Emperor and returned home to stay alive and well despite the Imperials might that might have found and killed him asap anyway. This TFU continuity trouble caused a lot of headache, and I think not just his close Imperial ties and public image are what saved him there. The Emperor chose to ignore that when first targeting him for death already. But I bet Bail Organa has had other tricks up his sleeve and other motives at work that saved him and were favorable enough to Palpatine to let it pass while keeping an eye on him.

    (yes we need an ANH intro novel that retcons/references TFU and other EU Plagueis novel style and stars Bail Organa, Leia, Tarkin and many others!!!)

    I think, despite Obi Wans tactic of hiding Luke at the edge of the galaxy... Bail Organa hiding Leia in plain sight was the more brilliant though more risky plan. Bail Organa was replaced by Leia as Senator after TFU whereas before she was just junior Senator and aiding him. So Bail Organa either trusted her to on her own survive on Coruscant... not be used against him by the Emperor. How so? What was it that Bail Organa had or knew that the Emperor wanted/feared enough to let him live? It's not just that he needed one Rebel leader who is not fugitive or hunted like Iblis and Mothma. Or wanted to watch the Rebel leader closely for hints that lead to other Rebels. But all that may be a part of it. Essentially I think this is the Ferus-Olin-Gambit all over again!

    Ferus Olin became Head of the Inquisitors for a short while in charge of the Jedi Purge while not turned to the dark side yet. They knew it and let him do his thing to lead them to more Jedi as well as to force him to questionable things and slowly have him fall and become the identity he tries to impersonate.
    Same game Palpatine played with Luke in Dark Empire! Luke willingly came to the Emperor to infiltrate the Empire and without falling study the dark side.. with Luke, one may fight over if he then slowly fell or not. I think he fell though and needed Leia rescuing him. But essentially this was the same gambit of letting the enemy in to slowly have him become what he fights.

    Now how does this relate to Bail Organa who is not a forcesensitive? Bail Organa, known rebel leader, witness to Order 66 and pacifist betraying his ideals and one day fully serving the Emperor against his former friends? How? Never? Well bear with me:
    Bail Organa is appointed to crucial committees and ministries, namely finance. He oversees the money flow, can redirect funds for rebel purposes and through financial transactions follow or find Imperial secret projects and more. Bail Organa in public is while alive forced to appear loyal and thus support the Empire and its propaganda. Bail Organa even has no choice but to bring Leia to the Emperor when asked to. Palpatine is a master of exploiting people for his own ends even if they would not want that. Bail plays right into the Emperos hands. Bail Organa knows that most Imperials are innocent, just following orders and suffer at rebel hands as much as at imperial ones. He hates collateral damage and as such is the one who is against terrorism but for military targets when the Rebels strike and all that. A voice of reason, but this reason can be his own undoing. He could damage the Empire a lot in his position but would not cause it would only hurt the Empire and Emperor through hurting lots of others financially or else. So he is forced to make sure all is well for the innocent who follow the law, even if the law is bad. Bail wants no new Clone Wars, but to keep the order while replacing the Sith with a proper government.
    Like Ferus searched for Jedi to save them... and thus he lead the Empire to them, like Luke directed the Imperial Fleet at targets with least casualities and less civilian loss of life and still commited dark acts, Bail Organa is trying to save many, minimize the damage and in the process reduces the chances for rebellion he so wants against the Emperor. He disarms worlds, he finances the Imperial War machine. Mothma starts rebel cells and recruits, Bel Iblis brings fleets and arms.. Bail was strategist/intelligence and finance of the Rebellion, but he had a weak spot: Leia. Leia as senator on Coruscant was in danger as soon as he rebelled openly. Leia was also often sent to Kashyyyk or other locations where she was used as leverage against Bail under close watch by Imperial officers (TFU) covered up as missions of mercy.
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Agreed.

    Really depends on how much trust you place in Kevin J. Anderson's account of Luke's "corruption" in The Essential Guide to Characters, and if Leland Chee's statement that Luke "nearly fell" retcons that.

    "It just so happens that your friend here is only nearly fallen. Now nearly fallen is still good. But with all fallen, there's only one thing you can do."
    "What's that?"
    "Leave him by a lava river and hope the Emperor doesn't rescue him in time."

    (Princess Bride references are fun ;))

    It's interesting to imagine what might have happened if Tarkin hadn't nuked Alderaan but called Bail and told them he had Leia.

    Bail's experience of the Sith planet in The Clone Wars: Wild Space might have helped him keep in mind just how evil the Sith are and how vital bringing Palpatine down is.
  10. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    I too thought of Wild Space when pondering what Bail had against Palpatine ;)
  11. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Oh yes, abso-kr*ffing-lutely! I want to see Bail's sisters! And Breha, if possible! And cameos from (or at least more information about) Bail's father and Mazicia Organa (who is confirmed to be Bail's mother in Star Wars Blueprints: Rebel Edition, btw :D)! And finally have it settled whether Winter was officially adopted by the Organas, or whether she was more of a "foster daughter," much like Neena who lived in the Organa household without being an adoptee. (I for one haven't seen a source that would confirm Winter's status as an adoptive child of the Organas once and for all, even though she clearly thought of Bail as her father – well, "like" a father anyway, as she says in Rebel Dawn if memory serves. Even if she wasn't formally adopted Winter would still be a special case, being Leia's closest friend and all.)

    I've gotta run now, but rest assured, I'll be back with more later. ;)
  12. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    I also wish we'd see more of other Alderaanian cities... McQuarrie art and the Illustrated SW Universe showed them and they look so unique and brilliant!

    also we need to get a clear word on Aldera.. is it as in McQuarrie painting or is it the ROTS mountaincity? latest Agent of the Empire comic had a city named Aldera with mountains in background.. but no shot of a sea or else it is supposed to sit in. looked different than the ROTS city too a bit.


    then, about the other planet in the Alderaan system, Delaya: basically it is goverend by Alderaan who is sector capital too. So, I bet they build stuff/trained soldiers etc. there to keep Alderaan free of dirt and weapons. But what does that make of Delaya and its society? Used by its neighbor to appear better and cleaner? Delayans had not the best feelings for Alderaan as we know. So there might be an ironic part to its role in history, since Alderaan claimed to be pacifist and utopian at the expense of its neighbor only who suffered the pollution and usual problems of a "normal" society that is neither pacifist nor as serene and clean as Alderaan.

    Then the issue comes up why the Emperors Alderaan-propaganda worked given Delayans being direct witnesses to the destruction. Seems if most did not care for Alderaan they were rather pro-Imperial compared to their neighbors eh? Or did the Empire enact a blockade and communications/holonet jamming for some time to keep Delaya out of spilling the beans? Not for long though since shortly after ANH it could be visited again (Rebel Force books).

    As sector capital, Alderaan probably also saw lots of traffic and business, meaning it needed at least some space stations and regulations... non of that seen in orbit during ANH of course since they have no big stations like KDY shipyards or else. But all those must have been there and would be the reason the Death Star lingered on insystem to intercept ships flying through the minefield or fleeing survivors. It's not like they had been waiting for Han to show up. They had other reasons to stay busy there for a while.

    Also I wonder if Delaya got Imperial garrisons, listening posts and such since it was so close to Alderaan and thus Bail and the Emperor and Tarkin needed to keep an eye on him.

    Would be interesting though to know if Alderaan was the only world Bail disarmed after the Clone Wars or if other Alderaanian colonies in its sector followed the example.

    In a way disarming Alderaan reminds me of disarming Mandalore (well partially :p) ca. 700BBY with probably many Alderaanians who despite love of pacifism wanted to keep protection after the Clone Wars moved out of Alderaan either to Delaya or other worlds in the sector that still allowed arms to be owned. After the destruction of Alderaan then a lot reunited to form the Alderaanian Death Legion that we saw active on Hoth (oh I love those guys, nothing is sweeter than pacifists that go to war.. you can't stop them hehe).

    oh and note there were Alderaanians serving as stormtroopers as we see when Leia meets one in Marvel comics. I'd like to know more Alderaanians reactions to the destruction, especially of those who served as imperial officers and troops. For one they got propaganda first mostly and fought more fierce against rebels.. then though when they learn the truth.. [face_whistling]



    more on politics later.. just needed to get some random thoughts out there for starters.
    and Tinwe, can you copy and paste here our discussion about the Alderaanian Ascendancy Contention stuff?

    meanwhile I dig deep into the oldest books and comics I have to start where the EU began... brace for impact of WEST END GAMES lore incoming!
  13. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Didn't Leia meet one in TaB? Or is my memory playing tricks?

    P.S. Wasn't Alderaan also home to a major xenohospital, nicknamed "Big Zoo"?
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Oct 25, 2012
  14. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    WEG Star Wars Sourcebook 2nd edition:

    Bail Organa is Viceroy and First Chairman of the Alderaan system (so the planet is ruled by his wife until she died) and he ruled the system and served as Senator.

    the book also notes that Alderaan had even before the Clone Wars had a philosophy of peace and life, as well as that it was battlescarred and with "shattered economy and withered ecology" at the end of the war. Well no invasion seen so far to it in EU or TCW but it might still happen, even if it remains offscreen.

    Leia won an election to the Imperial Senate... so she was not just appointed to replace Bail Organa!!!

    the book also mentions Bail Organa forsaw the dissolution of the Senate by Palpatine and had plans in motion because he either guessed or knew it would happen soon, which is one reason he sent Leia to Obi Wan!
  15. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    Rebel Alliance sourcebook:

    lots of interesting talk about Cantham House talks and such.. but lets concentrate on Alderaan centric intel:

    Bail returned home to Alderaan to serve as First Chairman and Viceroy primarily before the Corellian Treaty. So as of TFU Leia already was the Senator even if called junior Senator due to her age most likely.
  16. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    That would be the novel Dark Lord ;)

    One of Bails sisters was also about to marry into the Senex houses, which is a little iffy if you consider what those do for a living. :D

    I can easily see a lot of people from Alderaan having been Judicials or part of aid movements that got militarized and than getting killed in the Clone Wars
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Oct 25, 2012
  17. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    Dark Lord!!! thx... I was hunting for the source for years... [face_dancing]
  18. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    wait.. now I remember, he was on committees for finance as well as intelligence, that right too? Dark Lord too?
  19. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    Just checked the committee is mentioned in Dark Lord but Bail is not part of it at the time, though I could have sworn he was. It is in fact from the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, where it is mentioned that Bail was on committees for Finance, Appropriations and Intelligence.
    CeiranHarmony likes this.
  20. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Here you are, as requested (from the Agent of the Empire: Hard Targets #1 (of 5) thread):
  21. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    big update coming later today... stumbled upon an Alderaanian goldmine so to speak ;)

    the government is messy with lots of councils and else but.. I got an idea how to sort it properly! stay tuned
  22. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 4
    Tinwe's idea for there being two contentions, one for Bail's dad followed by one for Bail, actually works rather well for Agent of the Empire, considering the issue states "The celebration is for the twenty-fifth anniversary of the settling of the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention - that made Bail Organa Viceroy." So unless his dad was also named Bail Organa, that's a contradiction with who was the established beneficiary of the contention. But having one in 32 BBY for his dad and then another in 28 BBY for him would be a nice fix.

    Also just of note, Bail is referred to both as "Viceroy" and "Prince" in the issue, and is addressed as "Your Serene Highness", which I think is a new honorific?
  23. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    "His Serene Highness" has been established as Bail's formal address before (it has been in the Wookieepedia article for quite some time now, but alas, without a source – though I still think it's valid), but despite my attempts I haven't been able to find out just where it comes from. Maybe the ANH radio drama, or some of the old WEG sourcebooks? Would you happen to have an idea, CeiranHarmony?
  24. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
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    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Ulicus, Oct 26, 2012
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  25. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    Query: Has that ever happened with Wookieepedia? I know many authors use it for quick fact-checking and brainstorming.