Lit The Alderaanian Ascendancy through the ages (Free of buglove since...)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Look forward to hearing about it. I recall seeing mentions of a Council of Elders and a High Council so wonder how these connect to one another.
  2. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    I've been wondering about that too, Cronal, and I have my theories, but let's hope CeiranHarmony will be able to shed more light on the matter :)
  3. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    Sep 7, 2012
    star 4
    I actually noticed this happened with Plagueis - not in any major continuity-bending way, but that Luceno used names for some things that had only existed as conjectural titles on Wookieepedia.

    I know the High Council comes from the ANH radio drama, but don't remember what context it's referred to.
  4. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
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    I'm told that it has happened with Wiki - from a WW2 oriented forum where Wiki's name is mud for that reason!
  5. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

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    Nov 25, 2007
    star 3
    I had never even heard of Delaya until recently and I hope it gets featured more often in the future. From its description it sounds as if it serves as Alderaan's carbon offset. I would have thought that it would have risen to take Alderaan's place in terms of Galactic importance after its destruction.

    I also hope we get to see some more of Alderaan's military capabilities over the various Star Wars Era's. I did really like the idea of all of the competing noble houses fighting on Alderaan during TOR. As per the Force Unleashed Campaign Guide, I would sure like to know more about the superweapons and conventional forces the planet possessed before they went pacifist. As such an important Core World I have always thought that their military would be pretty impressive in earlier Era's in order to keep pace with the forces of Coruscant, Corellia, Alsakan and other the Core Worlds that were run by monarchies or the nobility.
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    First time I saw Delaya referenced was in The Illustrated Star Wars Universe- specifically the bit about Hoth- Rieekan's backstory.
  7. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    Here comes the bomb... discuss and improve!

    ALDERAANIAN ASCENDANCY's PLANETARY GOVERNMENT

    Alderaan is a hereditary constitutional monarchy supported by a democractic society.

    Regent of Alderaan (= King/Queen)
    a position in the court of Alderaan

    legislative High Council of Alderaan (one of the primary ruling bodies, democratic in nature despite Alderaans constitutional monarchy)
    The royal House of Alderaan held governing power directly over the High Council and most of its members served either as galactic representatives (f.e. Senators) or in the High Council

    Council of Elders (a ruling body in Alderaans government)

    => Conclusion 1: Council of Elders & High Council are two different councils!

    1) High Council being the core ruling body below the Regent, the inner circle
    2) Below the High Council would be the Alderaanian Parliament consisting of members of all Houses
    3) Elder Council being, as its name implies consisting of Elders who by skills, special areas of knowledge and else are advisers to the regent and High Council as well as a check and control function against the High Council and Parliament based on the wisdom of experts and elderly people's lifeexperiences.

    so to parelell it with real world examples:
    -the High Council is the inner circle around the regent (including ministers of the parliament as well as other High Council only positions) whereas the elder council is a separate advisory powercheck based on lobby experts other experts out of science, arts and business etc.
    -The parliament consists of members of all royal houses (TOR time) and maybe includes nonroyals (in modern Movie Era times)

    The parliament is elected democratically and itsel chooses the regent in case no royal heir is there to continue the monarchy. It also is the part of the legislative with the High Council appointed by the Regent and/or elected by the parliament.

    The legislative High Council features a Vizier who assists the Regent in ruling. The Vizier might be the head of the High Council even. Heirs to the throne often served as Senators or in positions on the High Council.

    Executive branches include:
    - the Aldera Peace Force (a peaceful Police)
    - the Order of Extermination (TOR Era as Killik-Busters, shrinked drastiacally in size and maybe ceased to exist with the Killiks extinction on Alderaan some time after TOR finally)
    -Kings-/Queensguard / Alderaanian Royal Guard
    -Alderaanian Senatorial Guard


    Royal titles sorted out... and it makes sense! Or does it? ... :
    -Prince
    -Viceroy
    -King/Queen
    -First Chairman/Regent

    While technically the regent on Alderaan is a King or Queen, other titles as those noted above have been used by Alderaans rulers! To clear it up a bit, Bail Organa was not King of Alderaan, his wife Breha Organa (born Antilles) was the official Queen. This did not make her husband King by title but more so in his role though. To make clear that Breha was the Queen and thus regent, Bail Organa's royal title was not King but Viceroy. This title though was in relation to Breha's being Queenand showed his role in government and elevated him as second only to his wife the Queen. His birthtitle in House Organa was Prince since he did not become King, this still is his birthtitle as opposed to his positions title of Viceroy. So it depends who adresses him, and in what function, to explain what title is used, but we need to check if the EU sticks to that simple rule or not. Then First Chairman is the official government title if one wants to ignore the royal aspects to it. So basically there is a title for everyone, one for within House Organa (where Bail as Prince would be still lowerranking to his Father the King, had he stepped down for a different Queen to ascend the throne!), another title for the royal government and one for the democratic governmental functions.
  8. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    now some notes about the High and Elder Council:

    the Elder Council was the one that dealt with the Last Chance and calling her back in times of need, thus important decisive power in their hands instead of just a powercheckfunction of advisory function. they dealt with essential matters of weapons, pacifism, philosophical questions, ethical ones etc.!
    the High Council deals with the day to day business of ministeries and governing as well as legislative, etc. whereas the Elder Council can invoke profound changes to Alderaanian society as well as prevent them based on their experience.

    i forgot to add in above post:
    The High Court of Alderaan was the Royal House that presided over the planet's High Council. From the issue of the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention, the High Court was composed of the members of the Royal House of Organa.
  9. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    bump: Age of responsibility/full legal maturity on Alderaan and Corellia is 17 according to the Wook citing a talk between Bria Tharen and Winter. hmm.. most of the galaxy has it at 16, Mandos at 13 even.
  10. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    Sep 7, 2012
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    And Plageuis states it's 21 on Naboo. Which makes it even more odd that young teenagers can stand for election.
  11. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    actually, not really odd! it's more like there is a gradual system of turning mature.

    galaxy in general has 16 as the age where one is allowed to fly spaceships, speeders and such and get license. most worlds have some age of maturity/legal responsibility between 16-21. Alderaan also got political duties for 16 year olds like Leia! So with 17 they have full legal responsibility, at 16 they are allowed to drive/fly and despite not being fully responsible legally they are allowed already in political offices and other jobs in the gffa. same for Naboo: fully legal responsibility with 21, political participation as voter and being able to be voted in office at age 12 earliest. it is just a matter of at what age one can do what thing. like on earth there are per law different ages in some cultures for "drivers licence", legal responsibility, partial legal responsibility and per law being allowed to have sex, smoke, drink and such.

    not all needs to be stuck to the same age ;)
    Last edited by CeiranHarmony, Oct 27, 2012
  12. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    The planet looks pretty nice to me, based off of the wook.

    Besides, I get the impression that Star Wars technology is pretty clean, and pollution only occurs using utterly cheap and careless methods. Certainly it is possible for technology to be clean, based off of the descriptions of planets like Chandrilla and Ithor.
  13. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    well Rebel Force books as well as other sources with Delaya have it a beautiful planet.. but its people definitely are jealous and not in favor of Alderaan at all times ;)
  14. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    What I would really like to know at this point is what, exactly, is a Viceroy compared to a Queen. Because for the longest of time we were lead to believe that Viceroy was what the leader of Alderaan was called, despite the title implying that s/he (yes, one of the Star Wars Fact Files actually says that the Viceroy can also be a woman) is running the planet in the name of the actual monarch. But that may have just been difference in terminology between GFFA and our planet. There could have been a number of reasons why Alderaanians opted to call the person who was practically their king a "Viceroy." (My pet theory is that Bouris Ulgo from TOR gave "King" such a bad name on Alderaan that they never wanted to use the title again.)

    I mean, if the Viceroy was not the monarch of Alderaan, why make such a big fuss about their election and "the proper line of ascent to Viceroy," like during the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention? And then there's the thing about the position of Viceroy being elective vs. hereditary. Some sources say it's former, some latter. And since the House of Organa was the royal family, why would Breha – not originally an Organa at all – hold the highest noble rank and be the head of the House of Organa? :confused:
    Cronal likes this.
  15. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Either two things then:
    1) Either, as you said Tinwe, the civil war for the crown fought in TOR gave the monarch title of King/Queen a bad name - maybe even the post of crown became symbolic with the true power being passed onto the Viceroy in order to end the endless squabbling seen in the past?
    2) Perhaps the reigning King/Queen by the Clone Wars era had died and there was another dispute for the crown with a Viceroy being appointed in the mean time whilst the debate continued
  16. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    Viceroy basically is not a King but second to one only, so basically.. if the regent, Queen/King decides to give part of the job to a Viceroy due to illness or concentrating him/herself on other duties like as minister, then the Viceroy is the de facto ruler with Vetopower of the King/Queen of course.

    Second, a Viceroy without a King/Queen would make sense also in fact that a society regards democratic ideals as best and thus the people are the regent, the people are the King/Queen and lead by a Viceroy who chose this title in order to make clear he is at the top position in government but the people are always above him so he gets no delusions of grandeur.

    the Ascendancy Contention can come in handy here too in that it gave the throne to House Organa as well as the title of Viceroy. yet in PT House Antilles rules with Queen Breha Antilles/Organa.

    So basically House Organa has the right to rule, but to settle the contention by marriage, Bail and Breha both are now House Organa members, she by marriage. So she may rule but in Organa name instead of Antilles name, placating both Houses in one swift Jedi decision as Jorus brilliantly did.

    of course that is for the second contention, if going by our new favorite theory of there being two, one for Bails dad and one for him and Breha.
  17. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    Hello everyone. As a fellow Wookieepedian, I've been discussing the matter with Tinwe quite recently. Gosh am I glad to see others have been thinking about all this! :) I've read those two pages discussions you've already written, and I think CeiranHarmony's theories are very, very interesting. ;)

    However, I just wished to add some little things that should probably be taken into consideration [emphases mine]:
    • The defunct StarWars.com Databank used to mention that "When Organa retired from the Senate, he returned to Alderaan. He reclaimed his title as Viceroy and First Chairman of Alderaan." → That means Bail was a "Viceroy" (whatever that means exactly) only before and after he was a Senator. He was forced to step down from this position while serving in the Senate. There is very little learning in this sentence, except that Bail was not Viceroy at the time of Episodes I (?), II and III. (N.B. THis DB entry was written/updated post-Revenge of the Sith, so the information must be "accurate.")
    • In A.C. Cripsin's novel The Paradise Snare, Bail was officially addressed as "His Majesty, Bail Prestor Organa, Viceroy and First Chairman." In real life, "Majesty" refers to a monarch of the highest rank, above "Royal Highness", which can only mean a king. Granted, the meanings of those title may differ in the GFFA. But what use would it be to call a "cat" a "dog" just to sound exotic? Crispin's book was written long before the prequels, of course, and at the time, it was quite clear that Bail was considered the ruler of Alderaan. And even after the release of the prequel trilogy, The Paradise Snare remains canon, so we have no reason to believe "His Majesty" was a proper address to the Viceroy.
    • Canon seems quite contradictory as to how long Breha lived. I didn't know of a mention of "the passing of the Queen" in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, but one of my pet quotes was featured in the 53d issue of Marvel Star Wars, with Leia musing over the destruction of Alderaan: "It was night in our palace--were you awake or asleep, with mother... or alone?" This particular statement hasn't been deemed non-canon as of yet, so we are led to think Breha was still alive as of 0 BBY. If that's the case, you've got to wonder why Bail was in charge of everything. If Breha was still alive until Episode IV, why didn't she take care of anything if she was the ruler?
    • Even in more recent sources such as Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader and Last of the Jedi: Master of Deception, it seems that Bail, not Breha, is in charge of everything in the Royal Palace of Aldera. It is Bail who receives ambassadors, Darth Vader and so on. Basically, Breha just banishes her sister for being a traitor. In Master of Deception, you can even read: "Memily was completely trustworthy; everyone in Bail's palace was." Please not the narration calls it Bail's palace, not Bail's wife's palace.
    My personal theory is that Alderaan is governed by a king called "Viceroy" for some reason. As it seems Bail couldn't be a Viceroy and a Senator at the same time, I suspect Breha acted as a ruler in his absence and was granted the courtesy title of "Queen". This would reconcile with an old Official Fact Files statement, which said that Bail delegated his powers to "a regent" when a became Senator. If Breha was that unnamed regent, everything would be clearer.
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  18. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2007
    star 3
    I think both are pretty good explanations for the position of Viceroy. From reading all of the codex's from TOR, it sounds as if the nobles had all of the power from the planets founding to the events of the Civil War. The position of Viceroy being created to make the transition between Noble Houses easier would be sensible, and would still allow for the monarchy/nobles to retain most of their power. I hope that's is the case.

    On the other hand if the Viceroy is more along the democratic leader of Alderaan then I would its either a new position created in the Post-Ruusan Era or it was always there, but it was a position that held relatively little power. I say the Post-Ruusan Era because it unfortunately seems that a few of the Core Worlds suddenly dumped or lessened the power of their monarchs after a just few thousand years of leadership. From memory this list includes Corellia, Naboo, Esseles and Atrisia.
  19. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    thx and great points you add there. While technically Bail was a viceroy by title, he did not fulfill the function until his return. Breha did govern herself and was only giving more governing duties to her husband after his return it seems. still Bail was very influential and as Senator as important.

    On Breha, yeah her death or life is a mystery. Marvel says there was a mother figure that was alive, but that might not have to be Breha if Bail found other love after her death. There was the intention of Breha dying young to account for Leias memories, but recently fans and many others prefer her to remember Padmé however forceinduced and unlikely that may be as infant.
    so going by the notion of Bail and Breha had to adopt cause they can't have children naturally and by Breha being ill as of ROTS, her illness might play into her death or inability to rule in later years due to health issues, giving Bail more to do thus as Senator and regent.

    as for Bail's palace: as my previous posts indicate, the Ascendancy contention favored the Organa family but placated House Antilles, the main contender by marriage between Bail and Breha. Thus House Antilles had a ruler on the throne while legally she had to become an Organa to rule first.Still though the Palace and all is that of Bail or rather House Organa, but due to him becoming Senator rather than King, Breha became the Queen. Breha is only Queen so long she is married to an Organa and thus at the House of Organa's will and best interests.
  20. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    Well, I was thinking about Breha being ill too. That would reconcile both accounts of her being alive till the end and the fact that Leia was brought up by her adopted aunts. In the ambiguously canon The Princess Leia's Diaries, whe see a ten-years-old Leia musing "Sometimes a girl just needs her mother--especially when you're ten. Why did mine have to die?" That would be a problem, for sure, unless Bail remarried before 0 BBY as you suggest. Being an aristocrat, Leia would probably be taught to call her father's new wife "mother."

    Anyway, I realize my theory cannot stand just because of a karking single phrase in ROTS novel: "On Alderaan, the Prince Consort delivers a baby girl into the loving arms of his Queen." Sith happens. It does seem that your analysis is the best one could come up with at the present time. ;)
    Last edited by LelalMekha, Oct 29, 2012
  21. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    Sep 7, 2012
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    It seems to me that a potential explanation might be:

    -Breha rules as Queen
    -Bail gets his title of Prince from being married to her (ie Prince Consort) and the title of First Chairman is something equivalent to Prime Minister
    -Viceroy might be something equivalent to regent. We know that Breha is also Minister of Education - perhaps this is her real passion, and so either to devote more time to it, and/or as part of the Ascendancy Contention settlement, she has to officially be the monarch but lets Bail essentially take on the duties as Viceroy?

    Or possibly Bail becomes Viceroy again when Breha becomes sick and/or dies near the end of the BBY timeframe, and Bail is then Viceroy/regent only until Leia comes of age (or while she's occupied on Coruscant)?
  22. LelalMekha Force Ghost

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    Oct 29, 2012
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    Actually, Alderaanians come of age at seventeen as already mentioned a bit earlier in this thread--I was the one who added the recent Wookieepedia article on "age of responsibility", btw. ;) In fact, Leia was the immediate successor to her father as a Senator, taking the mantle one year after she came of age, and only at that moment did Bail Organa reclaim his title of Viceroy.
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  23. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    Sep 7, 2012
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    Well, that would shore up the second part of my suggested explanation, then.
  24. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

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    Dec 12, 2003
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    It's quite obvious that the EU definitely thinks Bail is the monarch, title not withstanding.

    Lucas, well, who knows. It wouldn't be the first time he confused things in a monarchical system.
  25. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    It's possible that viceroy and queen/king are two separate titles. There would be a royal line, and then at some point there was instituted a position of viceroy to rule in the monarch's place (at least in some areas), as some kind of reform to limit the monarch's power. Viceroy then becomes an inherited title, with a line of ruling viceroys. Bail's marriage to Breha unites the royal and viceregal lines.
    CeiranHarmony likes this.