Lit The Alderaanian Ascendancy through the ages (Free of buglove since...)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    That'd be fantastic Havac, except that Breha's predecessor as Queen....was Bail Organa's mother.

    I think people are on to something though with the idea that the title of "King" is in limbo, with Viceroys executing their power.
  2. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Boy, LelalMekha, am I glad too see that you decided to join the JC forums as well! The more the merrier. :) Now as to your point, I have actually tried to find out what the earliest mention of Bail being the Viceroy of Alderaan (in-universe) is, and came up with nothing pre-ROTS – Revenge of the Sith Movie Scrapbook calls him Viceroy though. If he became the Viceroy following the ascendancy contention, that would of course mean that he was the Viceroy way before 19 BBY (from 32 or 28 BBY, whichever will be deemed the correct date), but none of the sources from that era call Bail that – at least the ones I've seen. Which would fit in well with your finding, LelalMekha. So Bail is appointed to Viceroy but because of his stint in the Senate cannot effectively handle those duties, which leads to a regent being named while Bail maintains the honorary title of Viceroy until reclaiming it officially (just like CeiranHarmony suggested).
    I'm curious about where the info about Breha having health issues comes from. I know she had repeated miscarriages, but were those caused by some illness or rather what contributed to her poor health?

    Since the Organa family is supposed to be the historic royal family of Alderaan (going back at least hundreds of years by the Empire's formation, methinks – quite possibly all the way back to TOR), I'm guessing Bail is a Prince by birthright and that title has nothing to do with his marriage to Breha. I could be wrong, of course...
  3. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    yes Breha's illness stems from ROTS, forgot if it was novel, visual guide or sourcebooks but the misscarriages were due to illness.
  4. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    Wait a second... Bail is Viceroy and his wife is Queen.
    Bail's father was Viceroy and his wife Mazicia Organa was Queen.
    There definitely is something there, don't you think?
  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    there we found another matriarchy ;)
  6. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    You suggesting perhaps the title of Viceroy is held by the partner of the ruling monarch? Or maybe the title of King was removed entirely due to the Ulgo created civil war and thus all male members of the monarchy became a Viceroy?
  7. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    not tying it to Ulgo I would...

    also Alderaan never struck me as matriarchic or patriarchic but rather a mixed bag with all genders in all offices possible. though, I'd no be surprised if they turned matriarchic roalitywise only in order to adhere to the theme of "women being more peaceful and natural than bad bad men" which is their main theme culturally in the Prequel times of peace, love, art and happiness.

    though given the women I know... I'd doubt that statement :p


    Edit: Same way Naboo turned from usual monarchs of all ages, to childmonarchs only after Amidala in order to have kids rule with their natural youth and uncorrupted justice. though.. during the OT we have adult female monarchs again there too.
    Last edited by CeiranHarmony, Oct 30, 2012
  8. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    I actually proposed on Bail Organa's Wookieepedia talk page a long while back that perhaps on Alderaan only women can rule, though nobody commented on it – maybe because we aren't really supposed to discuss things like that there. Ahem. Why didn't I come here sooner? :p

    But it would make sense, since all the known monarchs (there are only two, but still) of Alderaan in the post-Ruusan era are women – Breha and Mazicia – and it is emphasized in ROTS that Bail and Breha wanted to adopt a baby girl who would become their heir. There's just a small wrinkle in my theory, namely Bail's three sisters. If Alderaan indeed were a matriarchy, why didn't any of them become the next queen after Mazicia? I don't know, maybe the oldest child inherited the crown despite of the gender (I'm assuming Bail was the oldest of the four, though I'm not sure if this is actually stated anywhere), but in the case the heir was a man, his wife became the sovereign and he became the viceroy? That would be kind of Hapan-esque...
    Cronal and CeiranHarmony like this.
  9. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    I love hapan-esque. COPL stated hapes reminded leia of alderaan. And yes bails sisters... Unfit to rule if you ask me. I thought they were older than bail.
  10. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Shouldn’t in that case Brehas family be the one to provide the next queen if she does not have a daughter?
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Oct 30, 2012
  11. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    I just think that Alderaan doesn't have a rule forbidding people from having more than one position. Thus, Bail is king (though, come to think of it, has he ever been called King?) and he ran for election as Vicroy (their equivalent to Prime Minister I believe) as well as the position of Senator.
  12. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    I still think it's far easier to just assume "Viceroy" is what Alderaanians call their monarch.
  13. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    easy sure but it betrays the original meaning of the real word they used in a fictional universe. and I'd like to at least pretend they did not pick it just for the sound of it but also for its meaning. on the other hand... their track record with getting the meaning of what they use is hardly perfect :p
  14. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    We are Jedi Council Forum members... we don't do things easy :p

    How far back is the post of Viceroy anyway? Just asking whether its a more recent creation or not since TOR never has any mention of a Viceroy. Doesn't necessarily mean there is no Viceroy running around in the TOR era but just wondering.
  15. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    Frankly my dear, its seems that continuity issues much more substantial than the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention are coming... -____-
    Something has died in me today.
    CeiranHarmony likes this.
  16. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Viceroy goes back all the way to the novelization of ANH, where Bail is called "Viceroy and First Chairman of the Alderaan system." As for how long the position has existed in-universe... I have no idea.
    Cronal likes this.
  17. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Can't really disagree with you there, not based on what little we've seen of them anyway. And Alderaan doesn't strike me as the kind of society where people are forced to adopt roles they are not fit to perform, whether the people happen to be royalty or not.

    I don't remember if Children of the Jedi says anything about the ages of Tia, Rouge and Celly (in relation to Bail or otherwise), but the mention of them being "dowagers" would indeed suggest that they are older than their brother, if they have all managed to become widows by the time Leia was still a child. Unless their husbands just happened to be very, very unlucky. :p
  18. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    *pat* There, there... While I was somewhat shocked about the news as well, I'm trying to keep an open mind.The pessimist in me is as skeptical as ever, but what if this could actually be a good thing for Star Wars? We'll just have to wait and see, as frustrating as that can be. And if it turns out in 2015 (or even earlier) that they are going to mess with/nullify the established continuity... then I'm going to be royally pissed off. =(( But right now the best thing, as I see it, is to keep calm and carry on.
  19. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    I wonder what Leland Chee must have thought when he saw my FB question about the Ascendancy Contention...
    I can see the smirk on his face: "If he knew..."
  20. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Or maybe Chee was just like "why don't you nerds get a life already" – I've heard he doesn't have the same interest in interacting with the fans that he used to, which is a shame...

    Btw, I've posted my thoughts on the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention in the Continuity Snarl Celebration Thread, and some interesting discussion ensued, so I thought I'd copypaste the relevant posts here:

  21. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    very interesting points, thx for copy/pasting them.

    though this turns Alderaan into a limited democracy and more into monarchic structures, I do think we need to consider our previous discussion again:

    WHAT exactly is a "House"? Is it a family by blood relation that is expanded through marriage and taking up the husbands/wifes name? That was the first assumption, but I think it is too narrow minded. A House as we have seen through many sources and characters actually is not defined by bloodrelations and marriage. On Alderaan a House encompasses more than that. While the core of it is sure bloodrelation and ancient aristrocratic families, I'd not discount their servants and loyal subjects living in their House's realm into not being a part of that House.
    What if ALL people, even not-related ones who live and are registered inside the realm of f.e. House Organa belong to House Organa and thus are electable for House Organa? Out of tradition most of the time the royal bloodline is choosen for offices of government, but that needn't be so per law. That way, the alderaanian "House" is defined by the bloodrelation of the its core family of aristocrats yt encompasses a lot more. Like mandalorian Clans and Families go beyond blood, Alderaanians hardly are snobs who ignore the simple folk, they love their peace, arts and education and thus further it and are a democratic society, but a special different one. Though I'd not turn it into a more monarchic limited democracy.
    See how Bail Organa adopted Winter and how Sheltay Retrac, not a member of the family but a member of House Organa (!) was treated as family by Bail.
    So while the Houses choose their leader, the lead house chooses the viceroy might mean that all members, thus democratically elected choose the being of the leading House that will become the leader. Kinda a democracy with two steps: all houses vote for one house, then one house votes for one member to be leader. or if a House is seen as the political body of the realm of the House, then it might even mean that the elected rulers of the House realm choose the leader since they by election through their House's realms people are trusted to choose the leader amongst them.



    PS: Bail = alderaanian for viceroy (or has been once in EU).. his first name is Prestor.. if only more sources would acknowledge that *sigh*
    Cronal likes this.
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Eh, unless you think Clegg Lars is Obi Wan Kenobi's father, some things are just not canon.

    I think it's equally possible that Alderaan is a sort of mixture of democracy and Philosopher King status. The houses receive a certain amount of wealth and prestige from the position of Viceroy (and presumably other ones) and compete for it. The house which will rule is selected by the people at large and the Houses presumably have to make promises regarding the way they will govern.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Nov 7, 2012
  23. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    @CeiranHarmony

    Your last sentence in the quote is exactly how the "House" system worked in Frank Herbert's Dune Universe, ISTR.
    CeiranHarmony likes this.
  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
  25. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Great points in your post, CeiranHarmony. I only wish we would have more sources to back up the speculation... Maybe one day.
    Hasn't this already been retconned away by making "Prestor" Bail's middle name?

    Speaking of retcons and canon, would Bail's father actually be non-canon at this point considering the retcons surrounding the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention? While he obviously must have existed, the only direct mention of him (AFAIK) comes from Dark Force Rising, and has therefore apparently been overwritten by later sources. (Unless there really turns out to be two ascendancy contentions, one for the father and one for the son, I'd like to see someone explain away how come it was Winter – the gal who never forgets anything – who mentioned Bail's father as the candidate for the Viceroy position in DFR. "Err... yes there was that one time she got her very important Alderaanian historical figures mixed up, but other than that, her memory is flawless..." :p)
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