The All New United States 2004 National Elections COUNTDOWN!

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Mar 7, 2003.

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  1. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    I think they do it because nobody in the south likes it, whereas generally nobody in the north cares what they call themselves.
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    You guys need real lefties in your political parties. We have socialists here! What have you got?

    "Liberals."

    Are you going to let us add another point to our side in the "Australia V USA: How Manly Art Thou" competition?!? ;)

    (We're wining by about 2 trillion points)

    E_S
  3. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Your calling Australia with its Koala Bears more manly than the U.S. with its Grizzly Bears?

    I think not!



  4. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
  5. MoonTheLoon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2001
    star 4
    A big day today. Here's hoping that Edwards pulls off the big upset. I thought he did much better in last night's debate than he did in the California debate on Thursday.
  6. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Unfortunately for him, he won't be able to do it b/c his record is something that will come back to dispute any such maneuvering.

    Could not Kerry use the Presidents own flip-flopping on Gay Marriage this election year as the perfect defense against those sort of attacks, DM?
  7. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
  8. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Could not Kerry use the Presidents own flip-flopping on Gay Marriage this election year as the perfect defense against those sort of attacks, DM?

    Not really, because Kerry himself is in a rather pecarious position in regards to Gay Marriage himself. If he makes a big deal out of it, he too will be caught in a flip flop.


    *Edit*

    Damnit, Ender, I think you got me on that one.

  9. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Well, a roving pisshead like Russell Crowe tends to up the masculinity points a fair bit (For those who saw the pre-edit post).

    E_S
  10. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Why did you edit the post?

    That was a good picture.

  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Because I could do THIS:

    [image=http://www.blackchampagne.com/images/russell-crowe.jpg]

    &

    [image=http://www.maximumcrowe.net/maximumcrowe/caps/southpark1.jpeg]

    &

    [image=http://www.maximumcrowe.net/maximumcrowe/caps/southpark2.jpeg]

    VERSUS:

    [image=http://www.internetweekly.org/images/get_smart.jpg]
    &

    [image=http://feralnews.com/images/usa/bush%20with_sealed_binoculars_550W.jpg]


    :D

    E_S
  12. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Eh, I liked the other picture better.

  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
  14. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
  15. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
  16. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Essay: If it could happen to Churchill...
    By ANDREW SULLIVAN
    Monday, March 1, 2004 Posted: 12:25 PM EST (1725 GMT)


    Could it befall Bush? Why a wartime leader's success can be his downfall

    Wartime leaders have always faced the worst fear: defeat in battle. But in democracies at least, war leaders also confront another danger: success.

    The qualities that make for great statesmanship in wartime ? determination, a single focus on victory, a black-and-white conviction of who is friend or foe ? can often seem crude or overbearing when peace comes around.

    The most dramatic example of this in Western history is Winston Churchill. It is no exaggeration to say that without him, Britain may well have been destroyed by Hitler. He was the difference between victory and defeat.

    But almost the minute that victory was declared, the voters turned on their hero. He lost the postwar election. Even more striking, he lost it in one of the biggest landslides in Britain's parliamentary history. He wasn't just defeated. He was buried.

    I wonder if the lesson of Churchill now haunts the office of Bush political strategist Karl Rove. For something not completely dissimilar seems to be happening to George W. Bush.

    Since just after the capture of Saddam, Bush's ratings have been slumping. And this is less surprising than it appears. The paradox of the war against terrorism is that the more the President succeeds, the more politically vulnerable he gets. The fewer the terrorist incidents, the more remote the fear, the less necessary the war seems and the more dispensable the war President appears.

    If he responds to this by insisting that the enemy is still powerful and dangerous, he runs the risk of seeming to concede that he hasn't managed to curtail the threat. Or, worse perhaps, it seems as if he's whipping up fear and panic for his own electoral advantage. And after the failures of intelligence with respect to weapons of mass

    Here's what a really smart Democratic contender could say to the President this fall: "Thank you, Mr. President, for your leadership in difficult times. You made some tough decisions, and we are safer as a result.

    But the very qualities that made you a perfect pick for the war so far are the very ones that make you less effective from now on. You are too polarizing a figure to bring real peace to Iraq.

    You are too unpopular overseas to allow European governments to cooperate fully in the attempt to hunt down terrorists. And your deep unpopularity in half the country makes it impossible for you to make the necessary compromises that the country needs domestically. Thanks for all you've done, but bye-bye."

    An effective line, don't you think? Don't get me wrong. I'm not endorsing this position. I think the war on terrorism is far from over, and Bush's toughness is a vital part of the struggle.

    But he's deeply vulnerable because of these trends. The British people ejected Churchill not because they disapproved of his war but because they didn't think he was the man to lead them in peacetime. Churchill's opponent in 1945, Clement Attlee, was, like John Kerry today, no heavyweight.

    In Churchill's words, Attlee was a "a modest man who has much to be modest about." But he still crushed Churchill at the polls. The first President Bush faced the same problem. With the Gulf War and the cold war over, voters wanted a domestic, ingratiating figure to lead them in the 1990s. Enter smooth-talking Bill Clinton. More than a decade later, John Kerry and the Democrats have opened up a lead in the polls.

    The other Churchill parallel is equally unnerving. Churchill was a Tory as much as the current Bush is a conservative. But during wartime, Churchill expanded government to mobilize the country to fight Hitler.

    By doing so, Churchill helped legitimize Big Government. So the Labour government that succeeded him was the most left-wing in Britain's history. It favored high taxes, nationalized industries and created socialized medicine.

    The Tories, because they had backed B
  17. Valkor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4

    So who else thinks that a Kerry/Edwards dream team ticket could defeat Bush/Cheney (or whoever his VP candidate would be)

    Of course Edwards might want to regroup for 2008, but then he'll be taking on Hillary for sure.
  18. GarthSchmader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2003
    star 4
  19. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Not really, because Kerry himself is in a rather pecarious position in regards to Gay Marriage himself. If he makes a big deal out of it, he too will be caught in a flip flop.

    I didn't say he'd make a big deal out of it, JF. Just use it as a defense against attacks that he's a flip-flopper. It seems odd that the President is going after two main issues: one being Kerry as a flip-flopper, the other Gay marriage -- yet the second issue shows him in even greater violation of the first issue than his opponent can be proven to be.
  20. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    [image=http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/S-InvestBuy.jpg]


  21. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    FID, did your car just die and leave you its collection of bumperstickers in its will?

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