The All New United States 2004 National Elections COUNTDOWN!

Oh yeah, TripleB, one of my best friends and roommates from college was a Democrat who was indeed pro-gun, anti-choice, and pro-religion. Hates Dubya, is for the war for different reasons and against the war for other reasons, and will vote Democrat in 2004.

 

Obi-Wan said

TripleB, you have lost all credibility with me.

I have heard that said many, MANY times before on these boards by liberals, so why would you saying that have any meaning to me?

To constantly attack the Clinton administration for not doing things that GEORGE W. BUSH NEVER DID until 9/11 shows your extreme close-mindedness on this issue, totally ignoring it's impact on George W. Bush's ability to call for war. Tell me you honestly believe that if 9/11 never happened, GWB WOULD still be going to war.

I can say that I have no idea what would have happened if 9/11 didn't happen, but I don't waste much time pondering on such things. I like to think about the here and now, not looking off to the horizons....old Yoda talk there.....


Actually, don't tell me, it doesn't matter, I can stomache Clinton bashing when it's based on legitemate greviences, but to not give ANY perspective to position and the differences of the world at the time shows me that you do not understand the current situation at all.

Oh, I perfectly have a perspective on the world. I believe it was the British or French's, in their bellyaching over Operation Iraqi Freedom, that even said that if not for a few hanging chads in Florida that none of this would be happening. What does that tell you?

And to imply that Al Gore wouldn't have gone after Al Queda is just ludicrous.

I just did, see above.

You can believe that GWB has done a much better job than Gore would have ever done, but to make a blanket statement suggesting the Democrats wouldn't have done ANYTHING is just adding dung to the partisan fire.

I will say it again then: I make the blanket statement that if the Democrats were in charge, they would not be doing anything.

EDIT: I guess I can understand why you think so simply, however, since you have stated you believe their is a clear RIGHT and WRONG in every situation.

Thanks.

I believe that's true when examining one situation, but the reason that it can never be true all the time because right and wrong often comes down to competing values. What do you do when doing the right thing in one situation forces you do to the wrong thing another situation, and vice versa?

Ok, I need to make a correction then. While I have stated I believe in a clear Right vs Wrong with very little grey, that is a proxy to my true belief, which is tantamount to Good Vs Evil and in that there can only be one right side and one wrong side. So in answering your question, I don't see that working out appropriately.

This happens every day with almost every decision the government has to make.

Which is why government should not be as big as it is, where the core decisions are made by the people, not the government.

And everyone's perspective is different. I guess I wish you would just think about these things before making your blanket generalizations glorifying Republicans as totally moral and righteous and the Democrats as agents of Satan.

A little extreme, but the fact is I do think about these things before I post and I, like Rush LImbaugh and others, do so on the grounds that we are right and doing the work of Good, and that those that oppose us must be....

Well, you know the rest.

Vaderize03 Said

I think that the teachers' are first and foremost worried about losing their jobs. I don't really know enough about this issue to render anything other than my opinion, so I am going to bow out of this particular discussion.

I like to believe that good teachers or even average teachers would have nothing to worry about then.

I will give you that one.

fair enough.

Ignoring the spin, don't you think that makes them less likely to vote democratic? I understand what you are saying completely, but it just seems counterintuitive.

No, because their leadership tells them night and day that it is Republicans for the reason they are in housing projects, on welfare, can't get jobs,

 

I can say is that I highly doubt you would see the amount of protesting going on in the US if there were a Democrat in office, and I am quite sure Hollywood would be silent.

 

I believe it was the British or French's, in their bellyaching over Operation Iraqi Freedom,

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Perhaps you mean German and French, or Russian and French, because the British are fighting Operation Iraqi Freedom alongisde the United States, and have been in complete support from the start.

I agree broadly with what TripleB is saying, though I must admit to holding similar confusion over the role of GWB and Clinton in halting terrorism, and their reactions to it both pre- and post-9/11. I honestly don't think Operation Iraqi Freedom would have happened were it not for 9/11, as much as the more dominant strand of conservatism was in support of it (i.e., P.N.A.C., and even Margaret Thatcher (I read in her book, Statecraft, which was written prior to September 11 (and this part wasn't updated because of it), that she wanted something similar to what is happening now)).

Maybe you mean, TripleB, that GWB had the intention of tackling Iraq and terorrism in general prior to September 11, rather than he actually would have?

- Scarlet.

 

Well, there was someone in the British House of Commons that said on television the part about the hanging chads in Florida. I don't know what party he was in though, but he did not seem to have that much support when he said it. Sorry if I was not more clear on that.

I have not seen you in a while, TSB.

And as said before, I don't

 

No, because their leadership tells them night and day that it is Republicans for the reason they are in housing projects, on welfare, can't get jobs, or are in prison. And they believe it. It seems so easy for the people of North Korea, for example, to throw off the yokes of oppresion they are under, but when you are brought up believing things your entire life, it is more difficult to really 'see' that.

Give this a rest. The democrats are not communist-era spin doctors any more than the GOP are modern-day evangelical ones. No-one's brainwashed to that degree, except maybe you in your blind faith in the "my @#$% don't stink" GOP mantra.

Addressed above more or less. I see in my eyes that the Democrats want to keep hispanics down, but if you ask other hispanics, they see the GOP doing the same. When you break it down (ie, my Maxine Watter's example), it does not add up for the Democrats, which is why they make sure few blacks can count.

Your opinion. I'm not impressed or convinced. It's your party, after all, that had a majority leader with a record of making racist statements for most of his career.


The south does have a substantial voting bloc, right?

Sure, but they are perceived amongst minorities (especially african-americans) as being rather anti-minority. Being a substantial voting bloc with potentially ignorant ideals doesn't make them right.

I agree with you on most of that. As far as Black's go, unfortunately, yes they do vote overwhelmingly black yet they always seem to have the same problems, don't they?

That's because none of the whites in either party have shown them that they've made any realistic committment to making things better for them. This is not a problem isolated to the dems.


Again, I'm going to back off on the education thing, I don't know that much about it.

then maybe you should....

That's what I was doing. Smug after-remark not needed (or welcome).


I can't answer for things I did not directly do, so I don't know what to say. You do realize that in the South, there is a substantial SOuthern Democrat voting bloc down there, do you? It has only been recently that the South has gone Republican.

Window dressing. They were republican at heart and those who felt that way were in conflict with the current ideals of the democratic party. If they are closer to being republican then they should be republican.

I was in the military from 1990 to 1997. I feel that when you grow up, that you should listen to and hear all sides and try to find the one that you feel to be right, and as such, I was constantly warring with myself, trying to go where I felt best and for a long time. Even back then, I was all over the board on issues and at different times. While I have always believed in ther 2nd Amendment, I went back and forth on many specifics, for example.

Appreciate the history.


Give Clinton a little credit on that, come on. He was just as much on the attack as the GOp was.

I was simply pointing out the cycle. The fact that Bush lets others do the attacking for him doesn't mean the republicans don't attack.

Well, I would not call losing to CLinton in 92 and 96 and having a very bad cycle in 98 a field day with Clinton.

Uh-huh. You talk out of both sides of your mouth, you know that? This is the same TripleB who spent pages watering down Clinton's victory, and giving credit for most of the successes of his administration to the republican house. Very consistent.



Proof that the Moderates in the GOP do have hte power to bring change. You saw that all the 'moderate' Democrats in 93 could not stop CLinton's tax hikes, right?

Yep, four moderates voting on it, and you call it a GOP victory. It was a dem victory, hate to break it to you. By the way, it was in vogue to vote for Clinton's wishes in '93 without questioning, just as it was in vogue to vote for Bush's war resolutions this year.

My way being a quality ed

 

DM:
I can say is that I highly doubt you would see the amount of protesting going on in the US if there were a Democrat in office, and I am quite sure Hollywood would be silent.

That's because generally speaking Democrats aren't so quick to pull the trigger.

 

President Bush took a year to pull the trigger. In that time, debates raged full force. There was nothing quick about it.

 

Hollywood would be silent and there wouldn't be any protests because Al Gore could have GOTTEN that second resolution of force if and when it was necessary.

And you can bet Al Gore would be doing a helluva better job rebuilding Afghanistan.

As for Bush, TripleB, you haven't addressed ANY of Vader's concerns or criticisms of Bush, while he has adequately answered just about ALL of your pointless "Let's deflect criticism from bush by attacking Clinton" Clinton attacks.

Keep defending Bush at all costs, it's going to be sweet sweet victory when some jamoke democrat like Kerry or Gephardt steals the title from Bush. (What would really make me the happiest would be if Bush wins the popular vote, and the democrat wins the electoral college decisively. That would just be great.)

 

Vaderize03....i dont' feel like doing a long dissection right now, maybe tomorrow.

Obi-Wan said

Hollywood would be silent and there wouldn't be any protests because Al Gore could have GOTTEN that second resolution of force if and when it was necessary.

How? Al Gore would not have even gone after Iraq, he would be going after the NRA instead. I won't deny that France and Germany would have cooperated on the grounds that they would want AL Gore to succeed as a President as much as right now where they want Bush to fail.

And you can bet Al Gore would be doing a helluva better job rebuilding Afghanistan.

Yeah, in between having a state dinner for John walker LIndh and his family, sure.

As for Bush, TripleB, you haven't addressed ANY of Vader's concerns or criticisms of Bush, while he has adequately answered just about ALL of your pointless "Let's deflect criticism from bush by attacking Clinton" Clinton attacks.

According to people like you, I never address anything, even though I do, so why should I bother?

Keep defending Bush at all costs,

And you keep defending Team Clinton.

it's going to be sweet sweet victory when some jamoke democrat like Kerry or Gephardt steals the title from Bush.

THat sounds like a good episode of the WEST WING for you there.

(What would really make me the happiest would be if Bush wins the popular vote, and the democrat wins the electoral college decisively. That would just be great.)

Ah, didn't they do that on the WEST WING? Ha!.

 

Um, I don't watch the West Wing.

 

Obi-Wan said

Um, I don't watch the West Wing.

sheesh, and you call yourself a liberal. The West WIng is the only place in the galaxy where liberalism works, so I imagined you would have loved the show.

 

ouch

 

Well, there was someone in the British House of Commons that said on television the part about the hanging chads in Florida.

There are 659 members of the House of Commons. There is, of course, going to be some dissent to the war. But the majority (during a vote on force) - and quite a large majority - said they were in support of war; and the country, as a whole, is in support. We're also fighting it alongside the US.

So I think it was a little unreasonable to state that the British were bellyaching like the French. We're the ones holding the position closest to the US on this one.

Nice comment about liberalism and the West Wing, though.

- Scarlet.

 

TSB said


There are 659 members of the House of Commons. There is, of course, going to be some dissent to the war. But the majority (during a vote on force) - and quite a large majority - said they were in support of war; and the country, as a whole, is in support. We're also fighting it alongside the US.

So I think it was a little unreasonable to state that the British were bellyaching like the French. We're the ones holding the position closest to the US on this one.

Fair enough, although I would say the guy seemed to be one of the key anti-war people in the House of Commons. STill, his side lost the vote and the House has backed Prime Minister BLair, so I agree that that guy's commentary should mean as much as Nancy Pelosi. And I have been very, VERY supportive of Great Britain and of Prime Minister Blair over the stand they have taken on IRaq, so I apoligize if I implied I was knocking Britain.

Nice comment about liberalism and the West Wing, though

hehehehe.

 

The only reason liberalism fails is because evil selfish greedy people exist and they refuse to help anyone but themselves, failing to realize that they owe mankind for their entire existance and place in the world, arrogantly and foolishly beleiving that everything they accomplished they did totally on their own, totally ignoring the human institutions that brought them much of what they are.

Liberalism is about being free, in fact, it's part of the very definition of liberalism. Free from the oppression of those who care only about themselves and those in their immediate periphery.

 

Well, Obi-Wan, I said that AL Gore would not have done anything and guess what?

AlGoreonIraq

Al Gore: I would Never Start This War
War with Iraq: 3 April 2003, Thursday.


I would never start this war if I were President, Former US Vice President Al Gore said via videoconferencing at the Economist Conference "Seventh Roundtable with the Government of Greece", which takes place April 2-4 in Athens.

Al Gore, whose participation in the conference has been prevented by secret services ban on travelling, underlined that he would have tried to deal with Saddam Hussein with all other means available.

James Rubin, former US Assistant Secretary of State, expressed confidence that Saddam Hussein possesses chemical weapons. He described the Iraqi crisis as the hardest trial NATO has faced since its establishment.

Former Vice President of Sweden Carl Blidt expressed confidence that Bulgaria will become a full member of the European Union in 2007.

This is the first time that the conference is held in the capital of Greece, which holds the EU's rotating presidency for the first half of this year.

Bulgaria's Defense Minister Nikolay Svinarov and Maxim Behar, Bulgarian Business Leaders Forum Chairman, attend the seventh consecutive summit, which focuses upon the strengthening of trans-Atlantic ties and the gap that has stemmed through key economic, political and social issues on the global agenda.

Branko Crvenkovski, FYROM Prime Minister, Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Zivkovic and Albania's head of government Fatos Nano are among the high-ranked guests of the conference.

The conference also explores the role that both Europe and the United States must assume in international politics, restoring confidence in the international financial markets, setting priorities in trade policy and competition.

In the middle of March this year the Fourth Round Table with the Bulgarian government, organized by The Economist Group, was held in Sofia. The cooperation between the Bulgarian government and the business community in the implementation of structural reforms topped the agenda.

Representatives of Economist Corporate Network spoke on the economic development of Bulgaria. Bulgaria's accession in the European Union, the business environment in Bulgaria, privatisation and their impact on the inflow of foreign investments in the country were other important topics on the agenda.

So much for that one.........

 

On Letterman, Gore also said he would not have gone to war against Al Quida, he would have done things different.

 

I would never start this war if I were President, Former US Vice President Al Gore said via videoconferencing at the Economist Conference


Good thing that'll never happen.

 

The West WIng is the only place in the galaxy where liberalism works, so I imagined you would have loved the show.

!

Oh my God that's funny (seriously)!

I don't watch it, the only shows I like are the Bachelor and ER (go figure )....so my question is:

Is there any place in the universe where conservatism works? (besides the radio airwaves?)

Peace,

V-03

ps thanks to ObiWanMcCartney for the compliment

pps whatever happened to ferelwookie?

 

Vaderize03 said

Is there any place in the universe where conservatism works? (besides the radio airwaves?) Sure, in everyday life, conservitism works.

 

TripleB, everyday life in all honesty has very little to do with liberal or conservative ideology.

But I think the liberal slant of "treat others as you wish to be treated" is a little better than the typical "You're not getting any help from me, I did it myself and so should you." (Even though nobody ever does ANYTHING all on their own, EVERYBODY has help.)

 

Ok, no matter how good a President he may or may not be, GWB is dim-witted.

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
George W. Bush, Jr.

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between mother and child."
Gov GWB

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit... Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."
Gov GW Bush, Jr., 8/11/94

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."
GW Bush, 9/15/95

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy, but that could change."
GWB 5/22/98

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Governor, and that one word is 'to be prepared'."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 12/6/93

"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 11/30/96

"Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods."
Austin, Texas, Dec. 20, 2000

"I think we ought to raise the age at which juveniles can have a gun."

"Mr. Vice President, in all due respect, it isÑI'm not sure 80 percent of the people get the death tax. I know this: 100 percent will get it if I'm the president."

"If affirmative action means what I just described, what I'm for, then I'm for it."
St. Louis, Mo., October 18, 2000

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"We're going to have the best educated American people in the world."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/21/97

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
GW Bush, Jr. to Sam Donaldson

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"I am not part of the problem. I am a Republican"
George W. Bush,

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
Gov G W. Bush

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/22/97

"For NASA, space is still a high priority."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/5/93

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 9/18/95

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."
Gov George W. Bush, Jr.

"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."
George W. Bush

"Public speaking is very easy."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr. to reporters in 10/9

 

"Public speaking is very easy."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr. to reporters in 10/9

I think this sums it up.

 

I swear I've seen quite a few of the quotes on that list attributed to Dan Quayle.


Can we get a fact check on that list?