Amph Spider-Man & SSU Films (Madame Web, Venom 3, Kraven, Beyond the Spider-Verse)

Sure if you want Wocky and Ender debating over MaGuire vs Garfield for like, twenty pages.

 

It matters to me too, Mr. Aziz!

 

I'm sure that would be entertaining

 

Maguire doesn't like playing Spider-Man to begin with. He had to be talked into coming back...twice.

 

To those speculating about or hoping for a Marvel takeover, I don't understand the appeal. You see, I know exactly what a Marvel version of this story would look like: just the same as all their other superhero films. I'll leave aside whether that's positive or negative for now, but it does mean that certain things definitely won't be there.

I've always loved the Raimi Spiderman films for their grounded character motivations and thematic content. Fans of the ASM franchise, on the other hand, are strongly complimentary of the organic feel of the relationship between Gwen and Peter. Both points have their merits. What's important, though, is that you've never seen a Marvel superhero film praised for anything like this. They are "fun" movies with lots of action. Characters are irreverent and jokey all the time, so that every review compliments the snappy dialogue without the entire cinematic universe having managed to create a single quotable moment or line in almost a dozen films.

I'd rather have one relatively unique product than another piece rolled off the assembly line.

 

I'll take a Marvel safe Spider-Man, which is brain off entertainment, over a piece of crap, which is what Sony will make.

 

Well an MCU Spider-Man would offer a story we haven't seen a cinematic spidey flick do. How does Spider-Man interact with a world of other heroes, which is one of the more frequent and likable aspects of his comic counterpart. Plus the jokey lighthearted aspect matches perfectly with Spidey's personality. I would love to see a combination of a bunch of things. And maybe this time we can get a decent freaking villain story.....

 

The problem is that Sony has reached its peak with Spider-Man. If they had fired Avi Arad and stopped meddling and let the writers actually follow the comics, they might not have run this franchise into the ground. But meddling gave us the half hearted Venom, killed the Vulture and Black Cat for Spidey 4, shoved ANOTHER origin story down our throats, and gave us ANOTHER sequel crammed with villains. Say what you will about Marvel, but at least they've been willing to play the long games over trying to cram everything and the kitchen sink into one movie.

1) Spider-Man 3 did not need Venom. The whole thing could have ended with Brock getting the suit at the very end. But you also have other stupid things like Sandman being Ben's killer and Harry going full on evil at the beginning only to get amnesia and go good, then remember and go bad, then go good again after his butler FINALLY speaks up. So perhaps the whole thing really was an mess that was not salvageable. But adding Venom didn't help. Spider-Man 4 would have finally given us a female character in Black Cat, but yeah the Vulture isn't really that exciting but it would have been different at least. The big mistake was killing Norman and then Doc Ock back to back.

2) ASM forced us to endure the origin again. Sure they did things differently, but did we REALLY need to see it again? He couldn't just be Spider-Man already? That plus things like the suit's design, the lizard's design and the general poorness of the lizard as a villain made the movie simply ok. But it was nothing to be wowed by. The biggest highlight was Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone. And there was some actual story to Richard and Mary Parker and their death.

3) ASM2 suffered Spidey 3 syndrome. Harry Osborne is crammed in as the best bud of Peter who is dying apparently immediately as opposed to his father who survived decades? So rather than try to continue the research over time, he need Spidey's potential toxic blood immediately. And Electro, let's not even get started on the whole "NOTICE ME!" thing. Rhino was supposed to be a cameo so fine, but it was still pretty dumb. So yet again, the best thing about the film was the two leads. But then they HAD to cram in Gwen's death, killing off one lead. And now, all rumors point to Sony Japan wanting Andrew Garfield gone. SO, even if they keep the rights, we're getting a new Spider-Man.

Also I'm not sure I agree about Marvel movies not being praised for relationships. The first Iron Man made Pepper and Tony work. Something that I don't believe was in the comics (at the time Pepper was married to Happy). Captain America's Peggy Carter was so popular, she managed to get her own tv series. Granted, Sony did have interested in an Aunt May solo film, but I think Peggy's just a bit better. Winter Soldier is considered by some to be Marvel's best movie. And as far as grounded, Marvel manages to take the most outrageous things (A talking tree and raccoon) and make audiences believe they could exist in the same universe as these other characters. That in itself is a colossal achievement. It may not be as gritty and realistic as Nolan's films for example, but it's still mighty impressive.

But the bottom line is this: Spider-Man can not grow under Sony's current team. The reboot failed. The first film did ok, the second was critical disappointment and has forced Sony to look at another reboot. Heck, at least the Batman reboot was done after the story was complete as opposed to the tease/cliffhanger ASM2 ends on. And if Sony is just going to reboot and recast anyway, why not give it back to Marvel? They've already indicated no origin story. Spider-Man at Marvel opens up a tremendous amount of story potential- Kingpin for one example. Spider-Man participating in the Infinity War. The possibility of the New Avengers at some point (though without Thing and Wolverine that might not happen). It also pretty much allows for audiences to go in believing Spider-Man can exist in this world. A lot of the heavy lifting has now been done by other films. There's not a huge need to go into his origins and those of his villains, which can allow for more character development and less character origin junk ala Joker in The Dark Knight.

Now yes, Marvel has indicated an interest in not focusing on romance. But after 5 films that did that, is that REALLY such a bad thing? It would be a perfect time to introduce someone completely new like Felicia and Black Cat. Oh and because he's also back at Marvel, they could give us Morbius and bring Blade in. All these little connections that Spider-Man has with other villains and heroes can be touched on and can be used over time. So we would finally get something different from "Great power, great responsibility, love of life in danger, villain must be stopped, villain dies/apprehended, angst, rinse&repeat". Additionally, if Spider-Man is back at Marvel, there's other venues in which the character and his supporting cast can appear. As mentioned, Morbius can go over to Blade, the Daily Bugle can be used across all films along with Peter as a photographer and Ben Urich and J Jonah Jameson as reporters. Wilson Fisk can be truly built up as a Kingpin of crime through not just Daredevil, but Spider-Man's films as well. Heck, other minor mob characters could be developed whether in film or on tv along with Spidey and Daredevil. Compare that to Sony where Spider-man is doomed into reboots with the same crop of villains and the same allies. There is one thing you can say about Marvel that you can not say about Sony. Marvel is not afraid to take risks. Sony is. And that meddling is what killed ASM2. Sony has had their chance. And just as you know what a future Marvel Spider-Man film looks like, so too do we know what a future Sony Spider-Man film will look like.

 

Suddenly I feel so close to you. Preach on, brother!

 

So Apparently, Marvel President Alan Fine had some issues with ASM2 as well. http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=112638

Among them? Killing off Gwen despite the strong chemistry he actors had, the same retreaded plot lines, Electro's motivations.

Basically what everyone else hated too.

 

Yeah, as you mentioned "Spectacular Spider-Man" kicked to the curb because of the Disney acquisition / being webbed up with Sony TV. Boo.

Still haven't watched an ep of Ultimate Spidey, heard it was bad which is a bummer because Spectacular was fantastic. (also basically the genesis of Smart Science Genius Gwen which happened in the ASM flicks)

 

Pretty much on point.

 

Am I the only one who liked The Amazing Spider-Man 2? I really don't think it's that bad.

 

You must have horrible taste.

 

I thought it was ok. I've liked Andrew Garfield ever since Social Network and I thought he made a much better Spider-Man than Tobey Maguire.

 

How did it fail? A business like Sony pays a lot more attention to money than to "critical" response. The past two Spidey films may not have made as much as the Rainey films, but $700 million is not chump change. More than enough to keep them going if that's what they want to do.

 

Actually, if you read some of the leaks, ASM2 made far less than that: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=112646

Even then, it still made far less than Marvel's films. It was a failure. Internally, Sony has said as much and these leaks just confirm it. Critics and General Audiences did not enjoy it. Just like Superman Returns, Spider-Man 3, Man of Steel etc. the film underperformed and made far less than Sony had hoped. Sony wanted a lot more money which is why there was all the talk of Sinister Six and a new Spidey. And it is likely this poor response that made Sony even receptive to Marvel's offer. And now especially, they need the cash.

 

Love the movie meself, 2nd favourite after Spider-Man 2. (I'd rank them Spider-Man 2, Amazing Spider-Man 2, Spider-Man, Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Man 3). There isn't actually a Spider-Man movie I flat-out despise, just varying levels of really like to totally awesome. More Spider-Man in everything, dammit!

 

Maybe the Mouse is behind the North Korea/Interview fiasco.

 

I was very disappointed by the tonal shifts and cheesy overplaying of some characters, but upon re-watching it on DVD I think the good stuff outweighs the bad, at least for me. The leads are as good as ever, and the costume, action, and visuals are pretty much perfect. I wish they had show some common sense with the script, but I still enjoy the movie more than Rami's outings (though SM2 is a great movie on its own terms).

 

I liked it enough to buy it, there are some wonderful moments certainly. Overall, I see it as a mess of a film though.

 

You're fired!