Amph The Amazing Spider-Man (and Spin-offs)

Discussion in 'Community' started by Spiderfan, May 20, 2008.

  1. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    You seem to have missed the nearly 20 minutes of soliloquy wherein he explained his desire to rid all humanity of weakness and frailty, such as the handicap he had suffered...
    Spider-Fan likes this.
  2. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I didn't miss the borrowed social darwinist riff. It just had a number of obvious problems:

    A. There was no evidence of him having views even remotely like this prior
    A2. In fact, he had previously defined his mission repeatedly as trying to alleviate handicaps and bring everyone to the common standard of normal human function, not offer extensive "enhancements"
    A3. While he made a successful case early on that, for instance, being unable to walk might be disadvantageous, that's not really under discussion for most people. In changing normal people into lizard men, he is just making them slightly stronger and faster. There's no real reason this would help in the modern world, or really in any period in human history at all after we stopped hunting wooly mammoths. But the Lizard certainly doesn't stop to explain why he thinks this change is so important or necessary or helpful either. There's just sort of an assertion that it will be. . .because.

    B. The idea isn't actually that well thought out. There's no particular reason splicing lizard DNA would be best, and he doesn't even investigate alternatives, in spite of the fact that he's had ample demonstration of what for instance, a SPIDER MAN can do. Not to put too fine a point on it.

    C. There is no real reason for the shift in his modus operandi where he forces this change on people rather than offers it.

    I've got to say, also, that even without these problems, that speech still represented incredibly poor form for the filmmakers. It was a plot info dump that tried to fix a chronically under-explained, under-developed character without actually putting any effort into integrating him into the story.
  3. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    You're missing the crucial element that the serum caused his derangement.
    SithLordDarthRichie likes this.
  4. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Why? And what exactly did it change? I can't really point to any sort of personality trait or traits that would consistently explain his post-transformation behavior. Was it just a generic "bad guy" serum that makes you arbitrarily evil?
  5. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    Could be...his lizard brain?
  6. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Yes. Undoubtedly his lizard brain made him an altruist that wanted to improve the lot of all mankind. Makes sense to me.

    Never mind that if you were using the classic meaning of "lizard brain" it would suggest he was driven by the most basic instinctual drives, not any sort of complex motives like the ones he uses throughout the film.
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, Feb 17, 2013
  7. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    Wocky do me a favour. Get a sense of humour and lighten up. It's exhausting talking to you.
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  8. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    that IS his sense of humor. that's why he's the best troll/all-around poster
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Feb 17, 2013
    Bacon164 likes this.
  9. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I guess I'm kind of confused. I wasn't trying to be antagonistic. I was trying to explain my rationale for feeling the villain was an extremely weak part of this movie, which you seemed to agree to at least in part. We could have moved on, but you kept questioning me about my thoughts there so I kept answering.
  10. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
  11. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    I was posting about the lizard brain ironically wocky.
  12. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
  13. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    I also wasn't arguing about your Lizard tangent. Like you said I agree that was a weak aspect of the film. I did try to clarify Peter's motivation and the plot of the film, but beyond that was trying to add levity to a discussion that just endlessly cycles (which I regret stepping into again).
    Last edited by Spider-Fan, Feb 17, 2013
  14. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    His motives being altered by a psychosis due to his transformation is completely on par with the shift in personality and complete 180 in characterization of Doc Ock in Spiderman 2, which is largely considered the greatest of the franchise. If a completely **** villain characterization is good enough for the reputed high water mark of Spidey films, it is certainly good enough for ASM. The only difference between the effects of the Green Goblin formula and the Lizard formula is... as you said... the audience required a line in the script to spell it out for them.
  15. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    They aren't really equivalent at all. Doctor Octopus never really had any malevolent motives throughout the film in question. They went out of their way to establish that the octopus arms had an independent AI to help coordinate their movement, but which had to be blocked from interfering with Octavius's own neural output. This blocking device was destroyed. From that point onward, he was shown in clear dialogue with his arms. Their goal, in turn, was only to complete the experiment they had been created to facilitate, and Octavius went about doing that regardless of the cost. They were a physical embodiment of his grand ambitions, which he had to reconcile with his human limitations by the end of the movie. Not coincidentally, Peter was having the same thematic struggles at that point in his life, which are also resolved in the climax. This is a good part of why this movie is hailed as one of the best in the superhero subgenre.

    By contrast, Dr. Connors is a well meaning man who magically turns evil once he has some spliced reptile DNA, because maybe the subject he grafted from was the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Or something. Also Peter Parker learns what it means to be a hero, kind of, even though pretty much he still is just a huge jerk and only does stuff that benefits himself.
    Rogue_Ten likes this.
  16. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    The serum makes him evil. We don't know why. It's a superhero sci-fi film. Call it a flaw if you like. Something to do with a reptillian brain making him want to turn humanity into reptiles. It's not altruism as you tried to characterize it upthread; Its dementia, derangement, insanity.

    Parker's not a huge jerk who only does stuff that benefits himself. He risks his life to save others. Have fun scrabbling to support that claim! This should be good.
  17. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    i didnt see this movie but im convinced
  18. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    Well, I mean, what exactly is Green Goblin trying to accomplish in Spider-Man? He kills the millitary people who screwed him over first, then he kills the board who betrayed him....so what does he have left to do? Spider-Man doesn't really prove a major problem for him, and even if he is, why does he have to be GG anymore? The movie would've worked much better if GG was hunting down the board members one by one and Spidey had to protect them/stop GG. At a certain point in Spider-Man, GG has no real goal he's working towards, other than trying to ruin Spider-Man's life. Which doesn't help Osborn at all.

    Note: I watched the deleted scenes of ASM over the weekend, and thought most of them were really good, and went a long way to explaining the Lizard's motivation.
    SithLordDarthRichie likes this.
  19. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    The problem both of the "first" Spiderman movies (Raimi's & Webb's) have is that they have stupid-looking villains despite them being portrayed well by the actors who played them. This does undermine their menace and the ability to take them so seriously as a threat IMO, and a film with a disappointing villain will struggle.
  20. Aytee-Aytee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2008
    star 5
    I don't know...after seeing the initial tests for the Green Goblin animatronic face, I kind of prefer the "power rangers" mask.


    Maybe because it's by Amalgamated Dynamics and I hate those guys.

    Get Stan Winston or Get Out.
    Last edited by Aytee-Aytee, Feb 18, 2013
  21. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    Disagree with both of the above posts! @SithLordDarthRichie, I think the Lizard looks awesome; IMO the problem lies in what he does with his screentime, namely a lot of pointless meandering in the sewers. @Aytee-Aytee, the animatronic Goblin is far more compelling -- emotive, creepy, even scary -- than that expressionless metal mask used in the final film. YMMV!
  22. Aytee-Aytee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2008
    star 5
    Eh...the only problem I had with the Lizard is the lack of snout.

    I know they were going with the original Ditko design and tried to keep him a more sympathetic character by keeping the human element in his face....but good lord, he looks like a Goomba.
    [IMG]
  23. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    The Lizard looked like a green scaley monkey (or a goomba from Mario), and was clearly CGI.

    I'm not sure Dafoe's Goblin mask in SM was even metal, the whole suit looked cheap and made of plastic.
  24. soitscometothis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2003
    star 5
    I really like the animatronic Goblin.
  25. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    This is completely indefensible. Gene splicing from other animals doesn't cause this, as Spiderman (using exactly the same formula) doesn't suffer any persaonlity changes along with his newfound powers. So why should the Lizard? Literally the only reason you can give me is that the film demands a villain--preferably one with the physical prowess to fight Spiderman--and there are no other candidates. It's worth stressing how lazy this is. It's like deus ex machina, only positioned in the premise of the story instead of its climax. Stuff is happening without any reasoning or coherence. It simply occurs because the writers want to move on to the next part of the story, and don't even bother to craft some context for it.

    Parker is very much a jerk, and extremely self-interested. His whole initial anti-crime campaign is based on trying to identify the man who angered him by killing his relative. He then saves some civilians while going to prevent his friend from using his father's formula in a way he didn't like. Then that guy makes a full frontal assault on Parker. Then, after nearly being beaten to death, and finding out that the monster plans to transform his girlfriend and loved ones, Parker is motivated to go fight his assailant. What part of that didn't directly involve his self-interest? None of it.

    The guy who charged into a burning building without his powers just to save people he'll never know couldn't be farther away.

    His killings brought Osborne under a cloud of suspicion, and attracted Spiderman's notice. Neutralizing Spiderman was a major step in eliminating this threat that the Goblin had created by its own existence. Further, a large part of his efficacy was his ability to operate freely, which he could not do so long as Spiderman was there to fight them. The main thing I think one can point out is that Goblin's tactics are ultimately self-defeating, but I don't think that's necessarily unintentional or inappropriate.