Amph The Amazing Spider-Man (and Spin-offs)

Discussion in 'Community' started by Spiderfan, May 20, 2008.

  1. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Wow. As much as I disliked Spiderman 3, I think you are really missing the point of the character. The most significant thing about Spiderman, what made him stand out among other superheroes, is that he had as much consideration for his humanity and normal life as he did for his alter-ego. The point is not some sort of asinine contest to see "who's problems are bigger." It's about him, as a person, being able to acknowledge and empathize with the emotions and life situation of someone he cares about. That's a very basic element of being someone's friend, let alone lover, whether you are a superhero or not.
  2. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    But he's not complaining that Peter was too sympathetic. He's complaining that MJ was insanely self-centered and unlikeable, which totally misses the point of HER character. There's a difference.
  3. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Well, I mean, I guess I don't see how you'd take that from the film. Once the thing with Sandman started, she did try to be legitimately supportive of Peter, and was repeatedly rebuffed. In the first part of the film, Peter was shown repeatedly stampeding obliviously over her feelings with all the grace of an elephant. Are you saying you wouldn't feel upset if you had just lost your job and had your lifelong career ambitions crushed, and then had to go to dinner with someone who talked for thirty minutes straight about how awesome and widely adored they were?
  4. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Never underestimate the ability of Kirsten Dunst to play a character in a completely understandable situation and come off as unsympathetic.:p
  5. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
  6. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    I would kill to see a movie based on Jean De Wolfe and Sin-Eater.
  7. Spiderfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2004
    star 6
    I think you both have made good points here.

    Spider-Man has ever been a story that balances the Superhuman life and the pedestrian life, with heavy emphasis on the latter. And Parker really was so lost in his own glory, that he was losing sight of what mattered, but thats the point IMO. SM3 was about how far he could fall before realizing his mistakes, with or without the symbiont. He was largely ignoring her feelings and became incredibly self-centered, forgetting those around him. In a way her beef is legitimate.

    On the other hand, part of that relationship between Parker's Dual life has forever been his inability to balance it properly and not always making the right choice. He has a heavy burden to bear as Spider-Man. Its easy to get lost in that. Even easier when you are finally acknowledged for all your selfless efforts.

    I agree Wocky that Parker should have been far more sympathetic to what troubles the woman of his life, but thats really part of the point of his struggle and character arc in this story, and throughout his endless adventures.

    And quite frankly Dunst's performance was remarkably unlikable. While her issues were indeed legitimate, she continues to fail to balance the angst with the zest of the character that has made MJ a fan favorite for 40+ years. Its difficult to sympathize with either of them when there are no redeeming qualities about their performances. Simply put I was satisfied that they ended on bad terms and one of my biggest beefs with the movie was the "All is forgotten" ending.

    Then again I have always been a bigger fan of Gwen, and despite a really flawed movie, I think they did well with her character. I am hoping for more from her. Particularly since Elizabeth Banks won't be returning as Betty Brant.

    Oh and I agree with Julie that Jean and Stan would make a terrific film.
  8. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Wow, you guys are really harsh on the actors. I tend to be fine with them, so long as they don't stoop to Underworld levels of performance. What's really frustrating is that as with the point about Peter's burgeoning hubris, or the note someone made earlier about the coffee shop exchange between Peter and Harry, there's lots of things that could've made for potentially great stories. The problem is that they were each different stories, jammed together with hasty, stunning, illogic and made to support ferociously stupid plot points like the ones we've spent the last page or so going over. I was really stunned by the scope of this movie's failure.
  9. Jedi-Anakin-Solo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2001
    star 6
    The best example of Mary Jane just seeming so... wrong in the movie was the french resturant. Peter is obviously trying to empathize with her when she's upset about the critics and all he really has is Spider-Man so what else is he going to use to try to identify with her? Something to this effect:

    "I understand, Spider-Man gets attacked in the papers all the time."

    "This isn't about you!"

    HE'S TRYING TO SYMPATHIZE AND BE COMFORTING TO YOU.
  10. Spiderfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2004
    star 6
    While the inability to even effectively capture the essence of either Spider-Man or Mary Jane (two incredibly distinct and iconic characters) has always been a sticking point for me, I am willing to forgive them so long as there is something redeeming about their performance as the characters. The first film they were cute in an awkward sort of way. The second film had enough incidental humour and one of the better stories to balance out their individual character misses.

    But three, as you said, was so alarmingly flawed, that they were lacking in their redeeming aspects and they both just came off as whiny and annoying.
  11. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    I have decided that the villain of Spider-Man 4 must be the Scorpion.

    Because as a blog just reminded me, JJJ plays a big role in the Scorpion's story. More JK Simmons as JJJ = better movie.
  12. Jedi-Anakin-Solo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2001
    star 6
  13. Yodaminch Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 6
    Since JK Simmons was perhaps the best part of Spiderman 3, I'd welcome a movie that gives JJJ more of a role. It would also give a lot of opportunities for JJJ vs. Spidey banter.

    EDIT: If they are doing a Venom movie for 2012, and Spiderman 4 is in 2011, Scorpion would be a perfect way to make Venom work. Mac Gargan starts out as scorpion and later becomes venom. If they were to end Spiderman 4 in such a way that alluded to Gargan becoming Venom, then the spin off could pick up from there very easily. The key would be in casting Mac. He would have to do double duty and he'd have to be able to sustain his own spin off. Not impossible to do though.
  14. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Am I the only one who thinks a Scorpion movie would be completely awful?

    As great an asset as Jameson has been to this series, I just don't think it's appropriate. In the films, his positions against Spiderman seem to be as motivated as much by the cynical profiteering of a media magnate as anything else. I don't see where the visceral, abiding hatred that would lead one to create Scorpion would come from. Never mind that it's laughably implausible that a newspaper editor would be able to privately bankroll the creation of a masked superhuman avenger. Then there's the issue of making that tail seem anything short of ridiculous.

    I just don't see how it would work. It's fundamentally far less reconcilable to anything approaching reality than either the Octopus or Green Goblin, which are the two successful villains in the film series to date.
  15. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    I don't see why one tail would be any harder to pull off than Doc Ock's four arms.

    IIRC, JJJ is Owner and Editor-in-Chief. I may be wrong on that one.

    And I don't think it would be that hard to come up with something for Spider-Man to do at the start of the movie to make JJJ REALLY hate him. Hell, he could just make JJJ watch Spider-Man 3.
  16. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    I disagree. Spider-Man 4 should be about the Lizard.

    WE NEED MORE DR. CONNORS AND SCIENCE! :p
  17. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    Agreed. In each movie they've been slowly showing us more of Doc Connors. We need some Lizard. I'm serious. It'd be great.
  18. Jedi-Anakin-Solo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2001
    star 6
    I agree, I think we'll see The Lizard. That little chunk of symbiotic goo he still has could be a big part, as well. Or Raimi could just forget it exists. Neither would surprise me.
  19. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I think people are thinking too much about the symbiote piece. The symbiote didn't reprodice it, it's jsut a forceibly-taken strand. Dr. Connor's had it in the comics and the TV show too, nothing ever came of it in either one IIRC.


    I think the SPider-Man movies have been missing two major things I enjoyed about Spider-Man:
    1.) Spider-Man's quick wit and humor
    2.) Peter Parker's scientific genius

    And while Peter had the excuse of the symbiote in Spider-Man 3, MJ was much more unlikeable than I thought she'd be. I was more attached to Harry, even Gwen, than I was to those two. Eddie Brock was a compelte loser too, Venom was not at all the fierce muscleman he should have been.
  20. Spiderfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2004
    star 6
    I believe you are correct, though I will have to check for sure. Early on, at least, he is responsible for multiple publications including The Daily Bugle and Now Magazine. Its possible he is responsible for more.

    As for what might push Jonah to take action against Spidey?? Well its not unheard of for a character close to Spidey to lose a loved one in a fight involving the webhead (Both Betty and Gwen come to mind) and hate him for it. I would say the death of Colonel John Jameson might be enough to send Jolly Jonah over the edge. However, I have to agree that while Scorpion is vissually interesting and Jameson is a major boon to the series, I can't see Scorpion carrying a whole plot himself. Though he could be one of a number of characters created to kill Spider-Man, by a primary villain/mastermind (Kingpin, Smythe, Tinkerer, Prof Warren, a returned Norman Osborn etc).


    I don't recall Connor's having the symbiont in the comics. Do you recall a specific instance? I think you may be thinking of Dr. Richards, though I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. :p

    Frankly I would like to move away from the symbionts altogether. Venom is interesting in concept and origin but I was never a fan of the execution, particularly when they made him something of an anti-hero.

    Not to mention with the extensive Rogues gallery Spidey has it would be nice to introduce characters we haven't already seen. For instance I love the Goblins and would love to see Hobgoblin done, but honestly its time to move on (unless there is a recurring subplot about the return of Norman and his masterminding from behind the scenes).

    As I have mentioned before I would like to see a different area of the comics explored. Black Cat, the Crime Wars, even something like the Sin Eater. And I can't emphasize enough how much I would love to see some of the more iconic, visually interesting characters who don't have the character to sustain an entire plot, appear in lesser roles. Perhaps just someone Spidey is taking down in the opening of the film. I mean how great would it be to see Rhino or Shocker briefly.

  21. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I might be but in Peter's defense, MJ never bothered to tell him she got fired from Broadway. She'd rather tell Harry instead and to make matters worse, she cheats on Peter by kissing Harry and she lets him talk her into dumping Peter.
  22. Valyn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 8
    In regards to the actors, I never really felt that Dunst fit the role of MJ. However, I was pleased with Tobey, James Franco, J.K. Simmons, and Wilhelm Dafoe in the first two movies. Oh, and the lady that plays Aunt May.

    Come the third movie, however, the acting did seem to suck. Except for Franco. He was definitely the best part of that movie, imo--and the only character that actually seemed interesting.


    Perhaps somewhat unrelated, I'm still totally in love with that Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon. It simply rocks.


    And now for something completely unrelated...I have a friend who continually disses the Dark Knight because he says that Ledger sucked as the Joker. Sucked. Srsly. This guy needs his head examined and it's irritating. [face_not_talking]
  23. DanyKenobi340 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2009
    star 3
    I have a friend who continually disses the Dark Knight because he says that Ledger sucked as the Joker.




    :eek:.......The Joker is the best and my favorite super villain!!!!
  24. DanyKenobi340 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2009
    star 3
    My brother loves the Spiderman movies , hes been talking about SM 4 for a long time.
  25. Spiderfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2004
    star 6
    New Interview with Raimi: