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Amph Spider-Man & SSU Films (Madame Web, Venom 3, Kraven, Beyond the Spider-Verse)

Discussion in 'Community' started by Spiderfan, May 20, 2008.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Lizard's motivation was consistent with the comics which is that the Lizard persona believes that all humans need to be like he is, and thus will try and turn them. I will grant you that Electro didn't have a clear motivation and what there was was weak sauce. Rhino is consistent with his being a career criminal. Harry's supposed to be not quite right in the head, but Raimi did a better job portraying it as a slow decent.
     
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  2. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    I'm beginning to wonder if the Sinister 6 movie is even going to happen.

    Poor Goddard.
     
  3. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    The problem is that the Lizard's motivation late in the movie wasn't consistent with his character from earlier points, and there was no explanatory development between then. He started out as a humanitarian who categorically rejected Social Darwinism, believing that everyone deserved help. His goal was to make everyone normal. Then, for absolutely no reason, he becomes a Social Darwinist who believes that everyone should either become superhuman or cease to exist. They could hardly have made the two sets of ideals more opposed to one another.
     
  4. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    Being that he undergoes a quite visible transformation into a giant green monster, we can accept a sudden change in personality without much explanation. After all, we accept it very easily with other green monsters.
     
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  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    . . .no we don't??? Who are you referring to, exactly?
     
  6. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    To compare to Raimi's Spiderman, the Goblin formula was specifically mentioned as having side-effects of hyper-aggressiveness and other tendencies that explained his mental as well as physical transformation. In other comic book franchises, the Hulk is supposed to be an expression of unbridled rage. There's no one that magically gets a new personality just because their body gets stronger. Mostly because that doesn't make any sense.
     
  8. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Lizard goes in the comics from nice guy to Lizard, sometimes it flip-flops along the way as either a mindless beast or sometimes he does flat-out want to turn people into Lizards like him. It's a thing. Not the most eloquently and elegantly handled thing, true, but a thing. And he saves Pete from falling at the end, which is what Curt does when he switches back.
     
  9. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    ASM 2 fulfilled my only wish. That of Electro making electricity puns the whole entire runtime.
     
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  10. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    Who said I was talking about them? A foursome of turtles, who strangely dwell in the sewers of NYC, because of some toxic waste, transform into a fraternity of pizza-loving middle-American teenagers, and decide to be ninjas. Whereas, I bet you they didn't have that personality before their transformation. Did they? I thought not. And you accepted it, did you not? You never asked any questions, you never even batted an eye. Did you?! [face_mischief]
     
  11. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Not the same thing. They didn't have personalities as turtles because they didn't have neo-cortex that would allow them any sort of higher cognitive function. When the mutagen allowed these developments, they acquired personalities that were stable for them throughout the rest of their existence, except as perturbed by life events that were depicted or referenced. By contrast, Connors was already a human who already had a certain personality, who then magically acquires an entirely new one for no reason at all. What happened?
     
  12. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    Dr. Otto Octavius goes from being a gentle lovable idealist who tells Peter sappy stories about how he read poetry to his wife and believes that having a high IQ comes with an obligation to use it for advancing mankind, to becoming a cold killer with a sadistic streak because of the death of his wife, and because voices in his head tell him to rebuild his device. A bit drastic, no?

    "I will peel the flesh off her bones". "I should have known Osborn wouldn't have the spine to finish you off". Or best of all, the first time he meets Spidey, at the bank robbery, the first idea he thinks of to hurt Spider-Man, after having managed to knock him down from the wall, is to try to crush in his skull. [face_plain]

    Anyway, ASM is not the first movie to portray a villain's personality changing along with a physical transformation, and it won't be the last. It's enough of a trope that audiences are used to it.
     
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  13. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    What about Sandman in Spidey 3 who was mopey the whole time and experienced almost no change whatsoever?
     
  14. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    No matter what the argument is, I don't think ASM2 is even comparable with SM2. SM2 was probably the best 21th century superhero movie before TDK.
     
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  15. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    VVM, I don't think the Spiderman 2 thing is comparable. There was, again, a specific explanation for what was happening there. A single-minded foreign intelligence was literally invading his thoughts and changing the way he processed the world. Part of that meant being willing to kill people that could be a threat to his project. That makes a lot of sense.

    To pivot back to the Lizard, though, if you guys want to say "it's a trope" then that's fine. But you can't claim that and simultaneously say that it was more realistic than Raimi's version. The original trilogy had villains that uniformly had coherent rationales for their actions. In the ASM series, your defense is "it's a trope." Come on people.
     
  16. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Though one can try to rationalize it, I think everyone, even people that prefer ASM1 over the Raimi films, can agree that The Lizard's motivations/plan in the finale was the weakest facet of that film.
     
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  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    That's because Curt Connors and the Lizard are two separate personalities. Their motivations are distinctly different from each other, which was intentional on the part of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko when he was introduced in Amazing Spider-Man #6. The only time this was altered was in Paul Jenkins run on Spectacular Spider-Man in 2004, where he had revealed that Connors was in control the whole time, but this was ignored by later writers. In the film, Connors serum changes his personality when he reverts back to his human for the first time. When the serum starts to wear off, that's when he saves Peter and returns to normal intellectually.
     
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  18. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    It felt really rushed, especially with the voice in his head being used.
     
  19. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    I think the voice in his head could have helped things a lot if it has been used more consistently- even in the scene it appears in, it's initially unclear if it's dialogue that transitions to head voice or is entirely head voice.
     
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  20. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    ASM3 delayed.

    The new Spideyverse schedule lineup is:

    -Nov 11th, 2016: The Sinister Six
    -"Soemtime" in Summer 2018 (no longer May): Amazing Spider-Man 3

    So, basically, ASM3 has taken over the ASM4 release date. No word yet on Venom, as that hasn't really had a firm release date given yet, other than it was supposed to happen before ASM4, which suggested a 2017 or 2018 release date.

    EDIT- updated release window description
     
  21. vin

    vin Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 1999
    They should just reboot again.
     
  22. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    I'm still mystified as to how this S6 film is going to work, in terms of the conflict. Are they going to fight each other? Or are they working together and just going to **** stuff up so much that we'll be forced to go see ASM3 to see how it is all fixed?
     
  23. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    I would totally watch an entire movie wherein supervillains basically just beat the hell out of each other to be top dog in running the Sinister Six. Spidey doesn't even have to be in it. Whoever is in the Sinister Six at the start of the movie doesn't have to be there by the end.
     
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  24. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    Maybe it's starts off as the Sinister Twelve, but the duration of the movie is the Joker-inspired try outs...
     
  25. Juke Skywalker

    Juke Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2004
    The idea of a Sinister Six film where they all battle for leadership while simultaneously creating havoc for New York could work... but whither Spider-Man? Does he just sit in his room with his headphones on listening to My Chemical Romance and think about Gwen?
     
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