The anti-Star Wars media bias continues!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Durwood, Oct 2, 2002.

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  1. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    There was music used over and over again in the OT. What do you want JW and GL to do come up with nwe music all the time.

    That's a hard thing to do.

    Know lets drop the subject about music to. Who cares what music was used and what music was not used.



  2. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    why would the media have a field day about it? nobody cares about SW until a month before the movies come to theatres? 99.9% people don't even know who JW is.

    PM a mod, ask them to bring up the article, otherwise I'll find it tonight


    I am sure this would have been mentioned somehwere if it was said. Media, internet. Lucas bashers would have loved to have this out. Also why then would JW continue to work with Lucas? Go ahead find the article. I do not have to ask a mod. I have read alot of things over the past few years of SW as much as I could. Never came across this one. So I can not really beleive this.
  3. Only_2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 3
    99.9% people don't even know who JW is.

    You are kidding right? John Williams has won Oscars for his work. He has scored most of the top 20 films of all time. He was the conductor of the world-reknowned Boston Pops Orchestra for nearly 20 years.

    It would be safer to say that less people know who Mark hamill is than John Williams.

    And although he may or may not have disagreed with GL's choices in TPM's editing, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not the music used in AOTC is new or borrowed from the other movies. It's cover up remarks that only change the subject.

    There is nothing to debate. Not one single person on this board can prove or disprove one way or the other where the music came from.

    It is my opinion that they are new recordings, although the post production editing did chop them up to the point where it is difficult to tell.

    Not one single person has proven that it was lifted yet many people wrongly assume that it was. As I said before, I'm going to laugh my ass off when we all get the DVD for AOTC and in one or more of the documentaries we see JW conducting the LSO through pieces of ALL of the music of AOTC. Who wants to bet me?
  4. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    My take on the Greedo shooting first thing:

    a) It alters Han Solos character.

    Before the change, Han was a bad guy, working for Jabba The Hutt. The only thing Han cared about was saving his own ass and earning a living from smuggling.
    After the change, Han is not such a bad guy, he would never kill anyone in cold blood. If it wasnt for the Empire, he'd probably be a good honest hard working guy. Part of Solos character development over the course of the films is how he develops from this cold blooded, gambling, loner-killer into a good, caring person, with ideals about freedom and friendship. He changes. Now, this change is blurred because Lucas has decided to round the edges off the saga by "kiddyfying it" ("Oh no, we can't have one of the good guys murdering in the SW saga, what a bad example to set to children").

    b) The scene has lost all the black humour it had.

    I loved that scene probably more than any other in SW. Theres nothing funnier than Solo saying "I bet you have" and then shooting Greedo, who's limp head then slumps down onto the table making a "thud" sound. It's more in line with the way Westerns were. Now, the scene is totally ruined because we have Greedo shooting from 2 feet away under the table and missing. Han is seen shooting in "self defense". A ridiculous idea anyway, because how can you know that someone is going to shoot you under a table from 2 feet away? You wouldnt have time to defend yourself.

    c) It ultimately changes the saga.

    The change to Greedo angers me more than any other change the Lucmeister made to the OT.

    99.9% people don't even know who JW is

    Yeah, that one amused me too. He has to be the most famous person in film/classical music. He's won more oscars than any other person and his scores are frequently chosen in top 10 films scores as well as top 10 scores on stations like CLASSIC FM, as voted by the public.
  5. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    While I think the scene was pointless and pulled off poorly, I don't think it changed Han's character one bit. I mean, he's still a rogue scoundrel. He shoots Greedo and then flips Wuher a few credits. "Sorry about the mess" is still there. That's a great line. Han then goes and chats with a crimelord.

    If Han is a new character to you now after the Greedo scene... then... wow.
  6. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    He's not half the "rogue scoundrel" he was.
  7. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Oh brother. I don't know what to say, Yodaschum. I feel bad for you.

    When you watch Empire do you think, "man, Han is such a weenie now 'cause he shot a split second later a few years earlier at Mos Eisley cantina."

    Gimme a break.

    I feel Greedo shooting first was stupid, though. But Han is and always will be the same to me.

    I sure can understand thinking less of Greedo. ;)
  8. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    c) It ultimately changes the saga.

    ?[face_plain]

    That's quite a stretch. To me it was nothing more than a strange edit but didn't fundamentally alter Han's character or the saga in any noticable way.

    But the fact is, the scene as originally edited didn't make it terribly clear on exactly what happened. You just see Han say, "Yeah, I bet you have!" and then there is the sound of blaster fire and a huge cloud of smoke, then Greedo drops dead. In fact, until you see Greedo slump over, it's unclear exactly who got shot, and it's not a given that Greedo didn't pop off a shot or two. I suppose you like this ambiguity, but to say that making the sequence of events more clear "ruined" Star Wars is really going out on a limb.
  9. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Just to get the thread back on track (an anti-media bias) here's another example. Over at dvdfile.com they have a review of the AOTC dvd. They give the dvd good marks for the most part but of course they say a few times that Lucas has lost his touch/TPM let all of the fans down/ etc. Ya know, the typical Star Wars bashing that drives the popular, biased opinion home that Star Wars sucks now. It's just not very objective in my opinion. In that you can tell that the reviewer clearly has a negative opinion of the prequels.
  10. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    When you watch Empire do you think, "man, Han is such a weenie now 'cause he shot a split second later a few years earlier at Mos Eisley cantina."

    Err, yes I do.

    In fact, until you see Greedo slump over, it's unclear exactly who got shot, and it's not a given that Greedo didn't pop off a shot or two

    Yet another reason, he shouldnt have changed it.
  11. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I agree, RogueTrader. Here is how the review for the Clones DVD starts out:

    Likely the first film in history to receive glowing reviews just by the virtue of not being awful, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones had its work cut out for it from the very beginning. Despite boffo box office, Episode I underwhelmed fans and critics alike, so with Clones the burden was on Lucas to prove he was still one of Hollywood's A-list mythmakers, a filmmaker that hadn't lost his ability to fascinate the cultural imagination. It is true that Lucas was likely stuck in a no-win situation with Episode I: nothing could hope to match the charm and inventiveness of the original trilogy, yet fans expected nothing less than the second coming. Inflated expectations aside, Menace still disappointed due to unnecessarily convoluted plotting and an over-reliance on special effects at the expense of characterization.
    This is a review for the Attack Of The Clones DVD? Give me a break! The reviewer is even dismissive of the fact that much of the disappointment stemmed from over-expectation, and his sweeping generalizations with a distinct lack of proof are one of the better examples of yellow journalism I have seen.
  12. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    I tip my hat to you Yodaschum. But keep in mind, my hat has "tip this hat if you suddenly realize Yodaschum is crazy" printed on it.

    8-}

    Oh well. All I can say is that you've proven to me that you REALLY hate that change. And if it affected me that way, I'd hate it too!
  13. Merkel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2002
    star 1
    Regarding TPM music in AOTC:

    From JWfan.net:I attended a seminar today in Hollywood, CA, and it was confirmed by Matt Wood, the supervising sound editor for ATTACK OF THE CLONES, that the plan from the begining was to use music from PHANTOM MENACE for the CLONE WAR section of Reel 6. He said the Clone War was in such embryonic form when the film was turned over to John Williams that it was decided not to compose any original music for the sequence, but instead to track it with music from PHANTOM MENACE. In conjunction with the report from Abbey Road a few months ago and John Takis's mathematical calculations re:cumulative timigs of the score so far, this would seem to clinch it.
    Additionally, other scenes that were tracked with music from PHANTOM MENACE, such as the scene on the balcony in Naboo, may have had music written for them that WAS dumped. Matt Wood did not have a definitive answer except to say that the film had been spotted pretty much wall to wall.
    Finally, in a demonstration that showed how badly film can deteriorate over the course of time, McCallum showed the first few minutes of the original Star Wars from 1977 - this was 35mm film struck directly from the original camera negative of the print from 1977 and guess what? No Episode 4 A NEW HOPE title in the opening crawl. I saw it with my own eyes today, and it is just as I have always said it was - the crawl was not added until the film was rereleased in 1979 or 1980, just before EMPIRE (it IS possible the EP 4 thing was not added until even 1981, when the film was rereleased again!).
    elvisjones

  14. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Mapper
    You are not allowed to have such a veiw since it is in direct opposition to their fact that the same music should not have been used in another movie.

    Oh I forgot that. Their opinon is fact. Ours is just rubbish. Right. ;)
  15. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    the plan from the begining was to use music from PHANTOM MENACE for the CLONE WAR section of Reel 6.

    So if this report is true then we can plainly see that it was a purposeful decision very early in the game rather than a lazy last minute addition made in the editing room. Isn't it amazing how basher allegations rarely coincide with reality?
  16. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Yup, that's what I figured happened to the score. Quite frankly I'm surprised Williams get's as much done as he does anyway with George and crew editing even AFTER the film is released.
  17. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I have no proablem with the musice. I mean how many new songs can he come up with.
  18. Only_2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 3
    If I see this posted in a reliable source like Mix Magazine or some other such actual media source, I will recant what I have said. Until then, the bet's on. I, nor anyone here attended this seminar, hence it is heresy.

  19. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Very good point, Only_2, but for the sake of argument I decided to accept it as valid.
  20. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    I tip my hat to you Yodaschum. But keep in mind, my hat has "tip this hat if you suddenly realize Yodaschum is crazy" printed on it.

    [face_laugh] gee thanks RogueTrader [face_blush]
  21. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    I have no proablem with the musice. I mean how many new songs can he come up with.

    The Harry Potter score is better.
  22. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I think when peolpe see "from The Phantom Menace" they actually believe they copy and paste it from the actual score of the moive. I am sure JW composed it.
  23. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    yodaschum. I said I like the the musice in AOTC. I don't care what you like.

    We both like different things.

    I like Our Lady Peace.

    I don't know if you liek them or not. But really who cares what musice someone likes.
  24. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Is that a review of AOTC or TPM? Jeez!

    Inflated expectations aside, Menace still disappointed due to unnecessarily convoluted plotting and an over-reliance on special effects at the expense of characterization.

    Unnecessarily convoluted plotting? I could follow it. And it was necessary to have a more complicated plot than the other movies; this is the movie that's setting up the whole friggin' saga! It shows how Palpy rises to power. It shows how Anakin Skywalker is discovered. It shows the Republic teetering on the brink of collapse. It shows Anakin and Padme meeting. For pete's sake, what was this reviewer (who thinks he speaks for everyone--dang, that irritates me) expecting?

    Special effects at the expense of characterization? I saw plenty of characterization, among the special effects. This seems like one of the swipes at TPM that reviewers repeat mindlessly, sparing it no thought or actually examining the movie itself to see if it's true.
  25. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Post 700! Sorry. I had to do it.
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