The Art of Fight Choreography

It had to be made.

In this thread we will discuss the dos and donts of lightsaber choreography and fight choreography in general in the style of the other "Art of" threads.

I know that a lot of people here have varying opinions on what makes a lightsaber duel good as evidenced by the Ryan vs. Brandon thread, and now we can present and discuss those opinions without worrying about getting off-topic, because it IS the topic.

Personally, I have a strong dislike for "filler fighting", sequences of banging two sticks together pointlessly to lead up to the big move you actually thought up yourself. In my opinion, every swing of the lightsaber should have purpose and meaning behind it, the intent to kill or at least strike your opponent, not his lightsaber. If it takes two months of planning and practicing to achieve that, so be it, in the end it'll look vastly superior to a fight filled with swings and lunges that exist solely for the other fighter to demonstrate that he can block them.

Feel free to discuss anything and everything in this topic, from what makes good choreography to The Duel in Episode III to the pros and cons of wushu.

 

The best choreography comes from training meticulously in the methodology of swordsmanship for months, maybe years, and being an expert in chaining together set moves in certain styles, and then chucking it all out the window and making a fight individual. Every move should be original in some way, and this can come from an intent or purpose.

The unorthodox and the original make for the greatest fights.

 

I'm just goint to say it... you punk! I was just typing up this thread...

Oh well, at least it exists now...


More on the actual topic when I get finished with what would have been MY opening post...

 

[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/Ell_the_Ewok/fighting.jpg]

I made this awhile ago, I think its needed here.

Green. Do not aim for, its pointless.

Blue. Aim for, this will injure your enermy but not killthem. It may stop them fighting

Red. This is where all strikes should be aiming for, these area will kill your enermy.

 

To pitch in an article for discussion, I just saw Blade: Trinity the other day. All things considered it was a much better movie than I expected it to be. Still not great, but my intestines didn't try to strangle my brain while I was watching it, which is a plus.

But to the point of this thread, the fights. The physical combat of kicks and hits wasn't too bad. Jessica Biel actually really impressed me with her physical ability. When it came to the final battles, Reynolds fighting Triple H intercut with Blade fighting the Eurotrash Drake, I thought the barehanded "wrestling" style fight was worlds better and more entertaining than the sword fight. And I LOVE swordfights.

I'm guessing that Triple H had a lot to do with making the wrestling fun to watch, since that's his job. Also the two characters had very distinct personalities. Reynolds' performance of being constantly dazed and hurt by each blow and yet still trying to bring the fight made him human and easy to root for.

Blade and Drake on the other hand had personalities, but they were all wrong. The actor playing Drake clearly had no idea what he was doing, and the fight choreographers clearly had no idea how to teach him (this is confirmed by watching the special features, in which the choreographer -- and I really wonder where they got this guy -- says that since the actor plays golf, he was encouraged to hold and swing the sword like a golf club). As a result, Drake holds and swings the sword with absolutely no control, and Blade fights with a single hand, fast and precise. It looks like Blade is toying with Drake and takes all the credibility and danger out of their fight.

This is a case, as happens often in fight scenes these days, of understanding the basic concepts (give the characters personality), but doing it all wrong (making Blade's dominant).

M. Scott

 

HHH is still around? I remeber way back do the D Generation X days!

 

Haven't seen that movie, so I can't comment on that specifically, but I think I see part of what you're saying. A fight where the villain appears to be just toying with our hero who is giving it his all can really draw the audience in if done right, but a final battle where the hero is just playing with the archvillain is extremely anticlimactic.

Speaking of the former, which reminds me of the Luke/Vader duel in ESB, I would've liked to see that in the Anakin/Dooku fight in AOTC, because that was lame and forgettable.

 

Looks as though we have a franchise in the works....how about an Art of *insert topic here* sticky up top to bring them all together


Since I'm too lazy to type it all over heres a reprint from an older thread on the subject...



Though I'm far from an expert martial artist, I did study kendo for a year or so. I grew up back in the super 8 and early VCR days so I'd spend hours on slow-mo > rewind > repeat watching kung fu flicks, Conan the barbarian and KAoru Tsukuga ninja movies.

For coreography i kinda follow the David Gilmour guitar solo method. Start up a 6 hr. tape and just improvise a few moves at atime. Anything goes. flashy, goofy, hardcore balls out, whatever. Later on crack a beer and watch the whole thing start to finish. Some moves, combos and counters will stand out. Most will be uninspiring. Others utter garbage. Save the memorable ones and then repeat the process every few days.

Eventually the collection of good bits will begin to form a visual story, complete with dramatic pauses, violent clashes and cool flourishes. start editing them ( very primatively ) into a rough draft.

Then start rehearsing the whole thing in order, making a rough master shot. Go back and shoot short sequences from various angles and then finish with a final master shot.

Granted this was in my younger days and everything was edited in the poor-mans VCR technique, but it led to some really interesting, if not ameturely produced, scenes.



I'm sure this would seem inefficient to the eyes of a pro, but as most of us are not pros here I figured it might work for some people.

 

ASOULAN posted on 1/26/05 2:20pm

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Looks as though we have a franchise in the works....how about an Art of *insert topic here* sticky up top to bring them all together [face_wink]
[hr][/blockquote] Check [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Fan_Films/b10015/19989317]this topic[/link] - I added a few links as soon as this thread was created. ;)

 

This site has some good info
Netsword

 

Rock on brother DV

 

I study Tang (pronouced "Tung") Soo Do, a South Korean style. Like almost all other martial arts, we study "Hyung" forms (in english) or kata (in japanese). Forms are pretty useless in the way of fighting, they are just a preset amount of moves that you practice over and over again. The forms you practice though, have combinations of moves that you are either, learning or have learned; which allow you to memorize and make second nature.

Martial Artists or even former MAs are a really good choice for actors or stand-ins because they are not unfamiliar to learning large numbers of moves and reenacting them with passion and power.

Weapon Forms - if i had to say anything about lightsabers and their sword equivilent, i would say the Lightsaber mimicks the Katana (samauri sword), even down to its look. (if there was any reference to this before by Lucas or someone else, i am unaware. this is my own observations) the Katana is a light weighted weapon, considered elegant for its time. It was carried by the samauri, Jedi of the time. They trained their whole lives to be Samauri. Once a samauri, always a samauri.

The katana has a remarkably sharp blade, obtained through a fusion of two metals, one hard and one soft - which also, as a side effect, gives to the swords familiar curved blade. It cuts through many things that swords of that time could not even make a dent in, even other swords. The only weapon that could, realisticly, fight a Katana was another Katana. sounds like a lightsaber to me.

Most Katanas have guardless hilts, just the blade coming out of the hilt(also a connection with lightsabers). Ninjitsu blades, or Straight-bladed Katanas were used by Ninjas, which were dishonored samauri. (or Red ((the color of power)) Sabers for Sith)

Basicly - Shoalin, Tang Soo Do, and Tae Kwon Do Katana forms should be looked into to help supplement the tired style that currently plauges choreography, otherwise known as stickbashing.

And here is a question? How do you attack someone who has the same defense as you? you remove their defense and the you attack before they can get their guard up. Sometimes that requires you to lower their guard by breaking their weapon, Lowering their guard through deception, physically hitting their weapon (Stickbash), or attacking so fast that they screw up and give you an opening.

If i were fighting someone with lightsabers, i would be more than careful in my attacks because one wrong move could mean i am either dead or 15 pounds lighter. I would stickbash a little if it ment i was hitting his Blade instead of him hitting mine...

 

Please tell me I misunderstood you.

Martial arts forms are NOT useless. In the case of Shaolin Kung Fu, at least, each move in the form is an applicable fighting move that can be used to injure or kill your opponent. Forms were designed for two purposes: the first, to preserve as many such moves per style as possible and make them easy to memorize; the second, to hide them from the untrained eye and make them look like a kind of dance. If you know the forms and the application of each move, forms training is VERY useful in a fight.

The attitude that it's just a preset number of moves you practice over and over is exactly what's wrong with most fight scenes today. Martial artists -- and especially those from the wushu side, since if I'm going to be Chinese-biased I should at least speak the cons as well -- approach fight scenes knowing a vast number of moves but having no idea what each move does. So they devise a potential use for them, which sometimes work but often just looks strange.

 

I have to agree with this. I know that mindless smacking of stick's is a no no, but on the other hand a choreographer can argue instead that they were simply trying to wear down the opponent. After reading to many star wars books, the phrase 'feeling out the opponent' springs to mind. Swing wide to set-up an opponent, or aiming for their blade to try and tire them out seem like perfectly legitimate moves. Of course saying this is one thing, being able to do this in practices is completely different.

The problem with filmed duels, no internal monologue!

 

The best fights are a mixture of dance and savagery. The duel in TPM would be an example. RvD to an extent, each element is well represented but the dance is more effective then the savagery so it comes across as more prominent. RvB lacks the savage element more in terms of form and performance then choreography. This is probably a result of lack of time.

I like that Gillard tries to give each fighter a unique style, but otherwise I'm not a fan of his fights.

 

One of my favorite parts if not my favorite part of the ROTS duel was the part where Obi-Wan grabs Anakin's arm, twists it around and tries to cut his head off but Anakin blocks it. Even when I went to see it the 3rd time I thought to myself, "Damn that looked cool."

 

My thoughts on marital arts:

Kata

People who don't understand kata bemoan their purpose. Kata teach movement, increase endurance, strength and overall athleticism. They teach how throw techniques to full extension and how to move your feet. They teach you to look where you're going. They teach you to perfect your physical movement in the absense of an opponent. They teach you to imagine your opponent and imagine your intent. At karate tournaments, the best competitor I ever saw performed easily the best kata I've ever seen, and when he was sparring, he was so precise that the matches looked choreographed.

Partner training

My jiu jitsu training consists almost entirely of various forms of partner drills against single and multiple attackers, armed and unarmed. This again teaches movement and interaction, but differs in that it is not competitive. Working with compliant partners helps perfect movements that rely on others momentum, balance and anatomy. It is especially valuable in the case of choreography because the interactions are real but planned.

Sparring/Fighting

I have held various opinions on sparring/fighting for a long time. What is important to realize is that all forms of competitive sport - be it karate, judo, tae kwon do, muay thai, jiu jistu, wrestling, mixed martial arts etc., are sports, and have a very fixed set of rules. When fights are stopped for broken arms (saw that tonight - wow... hardcore), "illegal techniques" or "technical knock outs" you have to realize you've omitted a huge area of martial arts. Namely lethals and pressure points. Throat rips, intentional breaks, eye gauges, kicks to the groin, etc. are all excluded. This of course, makes the fights legal.

However, when I see some guy all pumped about "beating down" his opponent, all I can think of is the number of opportunities for lethals that were missed... If you ever do ground fighting, it's ridiculously easy to defend yourself if you abandon "judo rules" and start pulling hair and gouging your opponent. So don't kid yourself. Fighting to set of rules is one thing - reality is a different game.

Sparring is valuable though - it teaches you to listen to your opponent. To react to another physical entity, and to practice in more realistic circumstances than kata and partner training allows.

Styles

By "styles" here, I mean "goju" vs. "shotokan". "kung fu" vs. "karate". "muay thai" vs. "boxing", etc.

In my opinion, sytles in this sense of the word are meaningless. People who compare styles quite simply are debating rules, semantics and teaching systems. Martial arts is about combat and what works, not about which teacher you follow.

If I were fighting with a lightsaber...

If I was fighting with a lightsaber - or any other edged weapon - my only priority would be the death of my opponent - regardless of my own.

That's all for now.

-Spiff

 

Again I agree with the sentiments expressed that indicate originality is the key. Anyone who knows the first thing about fight choreography can tell you to aim for the person, not the sword. That's a redundant statement like saying 'when you eat, aim for your mouth.'

BUt to give a fight true credibility takes practice until the fight is so engrained in the actors DNA that they don't need to think about things like 'ok now my foot goes here and I do this'.

The driving principal behind any fighting style is the mind of no mind. Repeating something until it is your nature to do it on instinct.

I think it's important to have the right footing first. Know how to stand, how to step, how to walk and run with a weapon. Know how to fall so as not to hurt yourself. Blocking is the next step. After that if you have a planned choreographed sequence, train it step by step until it becomes fluent.

Training in costume isn't a bad idea either because getting used to the feel of the boots or the way robes hang off of you can change things as well. Just my 2 cents.

And it probably wouldn't hurt to use ideas in a duel that haven't been done a hundred times before either. But that doesn't mean you should find any old weapon and make it a light saber. Have you seen these fan films that go grab someones tae kwon do club and then roto scope everything they see? like staffs, curved swords, maces. What the hell is going on? lol

 

On actually getting the actors to remember the choreography:

I've found it best to run through it in 'blocks' (say, 8 moves in a block - longer once your actors/fighters get better). Go through a block at 1/4 speed a couple of times, then 1/2 speed, then 2/3 speed, then full speed. Approximately.
This is based on working with beginners.

And admittedly, I have no experience in martial arts - this stems from several years fencing - theatrical and not.

 

Great thread, some awesome information in here I think I'll just continue to read it for now...

 

dveditors right. MODS please consider a bump to the top, this is a serioes that is usually quality, engaging and interesting theories, info and opinion. I think itd be great.

 

You did....

what i ment was,

If i were in a fight, i would not use a form step by step because its not applicable... that is what i ment... I hate words, words are clumsy. They do allow you to practice your motions in a safe and controlled environment, with passion and power. But they are limited, in the way of, they do not allow you to react to someone else, to learn how to read people. that is what sparring is for.

I love forms, do not get me wrong, and i hope my previous post didn't mislead anyone.

 

I have been sword fighting for about 8 years now. Some has been in my dojo, but I practice most with some friends or fellow practitioners. I started with basic kendo moves, but also studied fencing under my father. After this much time (and about 3 years now without training), I think I have developed my own style.

When it comes to one-on-one sword fighting, I think that what many consider to be "stick-bashing" can actually be necessary. When I am sparring with someone, I use it sparingly to try and psyche my opponent out. I play a lot of mind games. I will strike my opponents weapon before they have time to strike so that it may put them on defense, where I can then go in for the strike. What I have found from filming these matches, though, is that it doesn't always look good for the camera. This is where I have had my most trouble when it has come to choreography.

The most glaring problem I notice with most filmed duels is that it is too obvious that they both know what is coming next. This is why, when I do films at least, I use a different style than if I were to just spar. I try to make it so that there are only 5-10 hits in a given attack, after which the fighters back off and re-think what they are trying to do. I try to make it so that it seems that they are using their opponents style against them, which adds a lot of depth, in my opinion.

THough, I will be honest, sometimes I love a crazy, "stick bashing, insanely long duel. "Ryan vs. Dorkman" is a prime example. It doesn't, to me, make much sense that two people would get engaged in such a long, complex duel. However, I friggin LOVE watching it because, let's admit, it is damn fun.

I critique the living hell out of duels if they are presented to me as if they were "great." If someone shows me a fight that is expressed as fun, intense, or maybe just cool, I can love those too.

 

That chart thing reminds me of a scene from spartacus.