ST The attack on Starkiller Base — how does it make sense?

You're absolutely right. And that's because the Starkiller is not part of the central story (unlike the Death Star, which is indeed the main object of the story, as established in the beginning). In TFA, the central story is about the bad guys and the good guys racing to find Luke Skywalker.

You do realize that excessive "road signs" or "sign posts" in films/ scripts are generally seen as weaknesses, right? We don't need to be hit over the head with explanations for everything. The reasons for what happens in TFA are generally very clear, and communicated effectively and efficiently. Kasdan strikes again.

 

Was ANH that confusing to you?

 

Exactly on first viewing i had my gripes about starkiller base and the x wing attack on it, then i realised the focus is on the forest fight, its easy to compare directly to a new hope finale' but ultimately they are not the same thing.
As to the starkiller base - it's both homage and maguffin - the thing that really matters is the battle going on in the forest. And Abrams rightly doesn't invest much time or emotion into it. I could probably do without it, but it's not too much of a distraction for me.

 

Alfred Hitchcock said: "The McGuffin is the thing that the spies are after but the audience doesn't care." In the treatment Skywlker and Leia are carrying with the "the Aura Spice" (The McGuffin!), and the two bureaucrats join them in their journey with the intention of stealing it along with one of their speeders. The spice was eventually replaced by the plans of the Death Star that Artoo carries in his unit.

George Lucas: "You always have to have something that everybody is after, something that's not necessarily tied directly to the plot. The nice thing abou the plan is that it pays off at the end of the film. You always want the McGuffin to be the thing that clicks the final climax....You reveal it, and it culminates or perpetuates the climax." - The Annotated Screenplays

 

Dear Lord man, not at ALL ... because that's not how good storytelling works. Because no, a good story is not simply a series of chronologically ordered events.

The fundamental building block of a good story is drama. Drama is comes from the fact that someone wants something while something/someone else is attempting to prevent them from getting that thing. There's a need, and there's an obstacle with the goal of preventing that need being fulfilled. There are our two opposing forces. There's our tension. There's our drama.

In this case the Resistance wants to rain hellfire down upon the weak point of Starkiller Base. The First Order wants to stop them from doing that, and one of the ways they're trying to prevent the Resistance from accomplishing their goal is to project a shield. So there's our set-up for one of the dramatic beats of the film. There's the tension. The Resistance must overcome this shield in order to accomplish their quest. And the movie wants us to believe that the only way this can be accomplished is for Han and co to shut that shield down from on the base itself, because if that's the only way then the tension is heightened and the drama is increased. It gives the ground mission high stakes, and stakes are the thing by which drama is "measured".

Except in this case the movie tells us that the shield is penetrable by hyperspace drive and we also know that X-wings have a hyperspace drive. So while the film on one hand is trying to raise the stakes by wanting us to believe that the only way Poe's squadron can succeed is for Han and co to shut those shields down, it has unwittingly also allowed us to believe that the shutting down of the shields is not actually necessary for Poe and co to reach the Starkiller. None of your other examples operate on this level.

Because it's not at all about "realism", so the Force thing, or Luke being a skillful pilot are not apples to apples comparisons. What it IS about is the film operating according to the rules it has set up for itself. That's where the Starkiller attack fails on a fundamental storytelling level when it comes to the Shields vs X-wings aspect of our story.

 

But doing so is dangerous....sending all the ships risks possibly destroying some of them on the approach...whereas sending one ship in to take down the shield to grant access for the rest of the ships makes tactical sense (as is partially mirrored in ROTJ). There's no guarantee that Han's plan will work, as is pointed out in the novel.

“I haven’t asked you,” he said to the pilot. “How are we getting in?”
Han explained without looking up from his console. “Any kind of defense will be geared to guard against an attack in force. They shouldn’t be prepared for an attempt by a single ship to slip in. That would obviously be suicide.”
Finn nodded as he pondered this. “Okay, now I’m really encouraged. Let’s say that your optimistic assessment is wrong, and they’re even prepared to detect and destroy a single ship. How do we avoid that?”
“No planetary defense system can be sustained at a constant rate. It would take too much power. Besides, it isn’t necessary. All planetary shields have a fractional refresh. Instead of being constantly ‘on,’ they fluctuate at a predetermined rate. Keeps anything traveling less than lightspeed from getting through. Theoretically, a ship could get its nose in when a shield is off. Half a second later, the shield snaps back on and—well, it isn’t good for anyone on that ship.”
“Okay, I get that,” Finn told him. “Which brings me back to my first question: How are we getting in? Without being cut in half by an oscillating shield?”
“Easy.” The way Han said the word made it sound like the simplest thing in the world. “We won’t be going slower than lightspeed.”
Unsure he’d heard correctly, Finn gaped at him. “We’re gonna make our landing approach at lightspeed? Nobody’s ever done that! At least, I’ve never heard of anybody ever doing it.”
One did not have to be fluent in the Wookiee language to get the gist of Chewbacca’s comment.

Han smiled pleasantly. “We’re coming up on the system. I’d sit down, if I were you. Chewie, get ready.”

 

Hey, thank you for posting that. Is there more content that talks about whether or not Han is using predetermined coordinates?

 

It talks about a pre-programmed approach and landing....not sure if that would include coordinates, or simply some sort of braking/avoidance manuever to prevent crashing.

As the wide-eyed Finn scrambled for a seat and harness and found himself wishing for a number of very large, soft pads, Chewbacca groaned his readiness. Han studied the readouts before him. The Wookiee raised a hand over his own console.
“And…” Han followed the declining fractions intently. “Now!”
Human and Wookiee hands flew over the main console, supplementing as best they could the approach and landing information they had preprogrammed into the Falcon’s instrumentation. Not unexpectedly, more than one last-second override was required in order to make the ship do something that was against its nature and perform maneuvers for which it had never been designed.
And just like that, they were inside the shields.

 

That is one reckess navicomputer. Remember too it must have some sort of AI because Han asks 3PO to talk to it in ESB I believe.

 

"Take the professor in back and plug him into the hyperdrive"

 

Not necessarily AI.....just getting diagnostic information from the ship's computer.

THREEPIO
We can't? How would you know the
hyperdrive is deactivated?

Artoo whistles knowingly.

THREEPIO
The city's central computer told
you? Artoo-Detoo, you know better
than to trust a strange computer.
Ouch! Pay attention to what
you're doing!

 

One of the old WEG RPG supplements claimed the Falcon's nav puter had been jury rigged out of three droid brains by Han.

 

It makes better tactical sense to fly around in a holding pattern waiting for the shield to drop while the air defense forces blow you out of the sky than it would to skip through the shields immediately and start to to hammer the thermal oscillator before the enemy can scramble? You and I may have different definitions of "tactical sense".

And while novels don't cover for plot holes in movies, even in the novel Han knows the plan will work - that as long as they pass through in hyperspace - something which can be accomplished by X-wings, the shield is useless.

 

I'm thinking Starkiller base was purely a disposable weapon. Essentially it did its job and destroyed the Republic. Whilst it had a big gun and a heap of troopers etc the scale of the rally speech was not sufficient enough in relation to a station the size of a planet and I wonder if its not run on somewhat of a skeleton staff. When Snoke calls Hux to bring Ren back to him I sense there is another stronghold elsewhere.

 

Uhm, that's not what happened at all:

OFFICER General, their shields are down!

C-3PO Thank the Maker! LEIA Han did it! Send them in!

ADMIRAL STATURA Give Poe full authorization to attack.

REAR ADMIRAL GULCH Black Leader, go to sub-lights. On your call.

INT. X-WING - DAY At LIGHTSPEED,Poe pilots:

POE Roger, base -- red squad, blue squad, take my lead.

INT. X-WING - DAY Nien Nunb pilots, acknowledges order in alien language.

INT. X-WING - DAY

Another pilot, ZOLO ZIFF.

YOLO ZIFF Dropping out of lightspeed.

Poe and the fleet are hiding in hyperspace until the shield is dropped.....not flying around the planet where they can be seen.

 

There probably is another stronghold someplace else, were Snoke is located. But it kinda irks me that they didn't have a single Star Destroyer defending their Starkiller Base.


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Kylo's SD was there when the gun was fired.

 

In the first approach scene to StarKiller base I think you can see several Star Destroyers towards the bottom right of the screen. But essentially I totally agree with your point.

 

Wow, I didn't notice that at all. But yeah, why don't the imperials guard their super weapons with star destroyers?! It's like the Death Star I all over again.


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They're not as strong or as competent as the Empire. For instance, they failed to put up a blockade around Jakku or Takodana, a misstep which would have gotten a commander under Vader executed. When the Empire struck Hoth, they had a blockade set up to intercept fleeing rebels. (Irrc, they also had one around Tatooine during the search for the droids - the Falcon had to evade three Star Destroyers to escape.) As a consequence, Rey and Finn were able to easily escape Jakku, and in Takodana the Order had to beat a hasty retreat after the Resistance intervened.

 

Either way, the Falcon going through first only raises the risk of alerting the defenses, meaning that when the squadron does appear they're more ready than if they jumped straight in. Sneak attacks rule, all other attacks drool.

(Also, your weird quoting style means your replies don't generate notifications. I only found your replies to my posts by accident mostly. Why not just use the quote button? Unless you're Sith of course, in which case carry on with the shenanigans.)

 

Sorry, I don't like carrying over entire quotes when I'm only addressing certain parts. It tends to take up unnecessary space in the thread.

Your scenario presumes 1) every ship survives the jump....not likely, and 2) if even one ship fails the landing and crashes, the explosion will be seen/heard/detected, and then there's no sneak attack.

So again, a lone ship taking the chance so that the rest can fly in unencumbered is still preferable...and the X-Wings were able to make a successful bombing run before they were detected.

 

I thought 3PO mentioned that the Falcon's computer had a "most peculiar dialect". Now, that doesn't mean it's self aware. But…maybe?

 

Meh.....I think it's just high falootin' diagnostics...but then again, in a galaxy where a robot can enter into a "coma", who knows?

 

The Empire and it's remnant factions seem to be way too incompetent for my taste. But hey, at least the First Order destroyed the New Republic.


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