The Bad Guys Were Not Cowards

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by VadersLaMent, Dec 6, 2005.

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  1. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    This is just in response to many comments I see out there regarding the actions of Sidious, General Grievous and Dooku. This is a list from a book of proverbs called Thirty Six Strageties, not all of them apply, so I'm just commenting on the ones that fit.

    Strategy 1 - Deceive the sky to cross the ocean.
    Moving about in the darkness and shadows, occupying isolated places, or hiding behind screens will only attract suspicious attention. To lower an enemy's guard you must act in the open hiding your true intentions under the guise of common every day activities.


    Sidious does this in literal fashion having public guise as Chancellor Palptine. The Sith do keep a low profile and slink about in shadow out of sight and did so for a thousand years. But Palaptine hides in plain sight(along with a little help from the Darkside clouding the Light).

    Strategy 2 - Surround Wei to rescue Zhao.
    When the enemy is too strong to attack directly, then attack something he holds dear. Know that in all things he cannot be superior. Somewhere there is a gap in the armour, a weakness that can be attacked instead.
    In other words, you may try to attack the relatives or dear ones of the enemy to weaken him psychologically


    Sidious does this with Anakin in a duel mode. Not only does he keep Anakin on his toes with a constant worry about Padme's future, but Anakin himself becomes the weakness of the Jedi through their distrust of him which Sidious plays up to by doing things like appointing him to the Jedi Council.

    Strategy 3 - Borrow one's hand to kill. (Kill with a borrowed knife.)
    Attack using the strength of another (because of lack of strength or do not want to use own strength). Trick an ally into attacking him, bribe an official to turn traitor, or use the enemy's own strength against him.


    Sith masters have underlings. Sidious has his apprentices do his dirty work, Grievous has body guards who fight off the Jedi while he tries to escape.

    Strategy 4 - Make your enemy tire himself out while conserving energy.
    It is an advantage to choose the time and place for battle. In this way you know when and where the battle will take place, while your enemy does not. Encourage your enemy to expend his energy in futile quests while you conserve your strength. When he is exhausted and confused, you attack with energy and purpose.


    ORDER 66 plain and simple.


    Strategy 5 - Use the opportunity of fire to rob others. (Loot a burning house.)
    When a country is beset by internal conflicts, when disease and famine ravage the population, when corruption and crime are rampant, then it will be unable to deal with an outside threat. This is the time to attack.


    This is the basic strategy Palpatine used to get control. He set up the internal conflicts starting with Naboo and took full advantage of the corruption in the Senate rather than do away with theat corruption.

    Strategy 6 - Feign an attack in the east and attack in the west.
    In any battle the element of surprise can provide an overwhelming advantage. Even when face to face with an enemy, surprise can still be employed by attacking where he least expects it. To do this you must create an expectation in the enemy's mind through the use of a feint.


    So Anakin and Obi Wan have Grievous cornered on the bridge of his ship. Does GG fight? No. He does something surprising and takes out the window with his weapon. Out goes the air which places the Jedi in a bad situation while he can get away.

    Strategy 10 - Knife sheathed in a smile.
    Charm and ingratiate yourself to your enemy. When you have gained his trust, you move against him in secret.


    Again Palaptine does this with Anakin and the entire Republic.

    Strategy 11 - Plum tree sacrifices for the peach tree. (Sacrifice the silver to keep the gold.)
    There are circumstances in which you must sacrifice short-term objectives in order to gain the long-term goal. This is the scapegoat strategy whereby someone else suffers the consequences so that th
  2. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i dont think they are coward either,its only that they are different,as an example they are not gonna sacrifice themselves for someone's else sake or for the greater good.but thats doesnt mean they are coward.
  3. Darth-Inferno Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2005
    star 3
    Yes, I believe VL is correct also. The Sith are not cowards. They are smart. And the Jedi have done this also.

    EX... Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fleeing from Maul after freeing Anakin. Is the light side cowardly also?
  4. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    The Sith aren't cowards. Grievous however...
  5. JABS Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Great post.
    From my point of view, it was simply a strategy, and the smart one. You have 3 Dark Side Force users (obviously Sidious, Dooku and Grievous), and thousands of Light Side users (the Jedi). The Sith cannot afford to be seen, due to their lack of numbers. Losing Dooku was simply another step of the way, as was Grievous, but Sidious could not be lost, due to the fact that the whole 3 movies were planned by him. He was the Sith Lord, and the master, and his cowardice was anything but. It was a strategy, and had he played the brave guy, he would have been killed at the first 40 minutes of the first movie.
  6. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    You have 3 Dark Side Force users (obviously Sidious, Dooku and Grievous),

    Grievous had no force powers, darkside or otherwise. :D He was just a finely trained 90% machine.
  7. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    There are no cowards, only the living and the dead!
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Sidious isn't a coward persay, but he does try to avoid fighting Yoda at first. Dooku was trying to protect the Death Star plans. Grievous, on the other hand, is clearly a coward as described by Lucas. He has bodyguards and is almost always running.
  9. alansmithee85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Excellent post VadersLaMent. Well thought out and explained. Though in a way I disagree: if you mean lack of nerve by cowardice, then of course not. They are merely pragmatic, and will not lack nerve to do what must be done when the time is right. But in a very general sense I think villains are motivated by fear. All what could be considered evil can be boiled down to fear for the self, while everything good can be boiled down to surrender of the self. Fear of rejection, of failure, of losing what one desires, fear of physical or another kind of harm, fear of death, fear of fading away etc? To use an example already given, Palpatine runs away at first from Yoda because no matter his power, he is at the dawn of his ultimate triumph over all; for all his scheming and nursing of events, why bother risking throwing it all away by engaging Yoda? Even if Yoda were slightly weaker than him and not his equal (but he is), the fortunes of war can go either way?much better to just run away and come back with back up so there is little danger. Sometimes superior strength and skill get beat anyway, and the smaller the difference in power between them, the more of a risk he is taking by fighting Yoda fairly. Palpatine avoids the fight if he can (ends up he can?t of course) because that?s the best tactical way, and ultimately it is motivated by a fear of losing all he has wrought, as well as his life or power. When Yoda runs away, it is not out of cowardice but rather wanting to secure the future of the Jedi to save the galaxy from darkness. If that purpose could be somehow served by giving up his comrades, his life, or his power, he would. Their fear to lose is what makes the villains operate according to the strategies you?ve outlined, and it is also what makes them ultimate cowards. It also distinguishes Anakin from his son?Luke masters his fear, while Anakin?s fears master him.
  10. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Even if Yoda were slightly weaker than him and not his equal (but he is)

    Actually, Yoda is not the Emperor's equal. Gillard said that the Emperor is stronger and the Visual Dictionary said Yoda was "overmatched". Because the dark side is stronger, Yoda's feeble Jedi "skills are no match for the power of the dark side".

    "The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat."- OS Databank Entry
    "the Sith bested him."- OS Databank Entry for Yoda
    "the dark side is more powerful"- Lucas in AOTC DVD Commentary
    "He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side."- Nick Gillard
    "This truth: that he, the avator of light, supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just-didn't-have it. He'd never had it."- middle of page 396 of Stover's novel
    "The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?"- towards the end of page 396 of Stover's novel
    "Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced."-Gillard
    "His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."- Nick Gillard
    "He's gotta be even more powerful than the Jedi."- Rick McCallum
    "Yoda was going to get a tough time"- Ian McDiarmid
    "Palpatine is ambidextrous with his saber. He's THAT good."-Gillard
    "Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."- Gillard

    The Emperor isn't a coward, only Grievous is. The most powerful force user in the galaxy has no reason to be overly fearful.
  11. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    =D=...couldn't have sum it up with such a short post myself even if i treid to ... =D=
  12. alansmithee85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Well, I don?t put much stock in the OS databank or quotes outside of the movies?the finished product of which shows something of a stalemate. But 20,000,000 Frenchmen can?t be wrong, so okay, he?s weaker than Sidious. Makes sense too. Dark side is waxing and in blow for blow physical power, it is stronger. But that only validates what I was saying, just take out the little ?(?).? He has no reason to be afraid of losing to him, except in very unlikely scenarios, but yet he is.
  13. camifladge2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 1
    I agree because the sith needed the perfect time to strike.
  14. alansmithee85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2005
    You say he is no coward, but you corrected me and said he is more powerful than Yoda?and yet then he tries to escape.
    ?If so powerful you are, why leave??
    Cowardice and cunning are two sides of the same coin.
  15. camifladge2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 1
    I don't think sidious would run because he thinks he is more powerful than yoda.
  16. alansmithee85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2005
    After Yoda Force-pushes him and starts talking smack, Palpatine does an impressive flip from behind his desk to the doorway of the holding chamber to get out of there, and then he looks down, stopping short with a startled or little fearful expression when Yoda blocks his way. It happens real quick so I don?t blame you for missing it.
  17. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6

    You are on point once again, farrellg.

    ***
    There is a big difference between an idiot who rushes in headfirst, and a genius who takes the time to create a plan of attack.

    The idiot and the genius are both measured by their success.



    Even the bravest of men have brief moments of cowardice, that, in itself doesn't make one a coward... it just exposes their vulnerability. Sidious was shrewd enough, albeit fearful, to assassinate his sleeping Master.




    A cowardly act in some circles, yet brilliant in others.
  18. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    After Yoda Force-pushes him and starts talking smack, Palpatine does an impressive flip from behind his desk to the doorway of the holding chamber to get out of there, and then he looks down, stopping short with a startled or little fearful expression when Yoda blocks his way. It happens real quick so I don?t blame you for missing it.



    Not real sure what to make of that. He could be going to get the clone troopers, as Palps generally doesnt like to do his own fighting. Or he could have been trying to lead the fight into another area he likes better.
  19. JOHNNY-B Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2003
    star 2
    "Not real sure what to make of that. He could be going to get the clone troopers, as Palps generally doesnt like to do his own fighting. Or he could have been trying to lead the fight into another area he likes better."

    I'll agree with that. He didn't want any part of Yoda. But Yoda gave him no choice. In the end he had to duel. Even though he tried to avoid it. "If so powerful you are? Why leave?" I love that line.
  20. alansmithee85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2005
    I said that. As powerful as he is, why risk it when you don?t have to. It?s smart, but cowardly as well?they aren?t mutually exclusive. Same thing with killing his master in his sleep.
  21. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    So that in turn would mean that someone who's fighting without need is foolish as well as brave. [face_thinking]
  22. alansmithee85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2005
    And still, in the ultimate way they are cowards. Lucas has a personal interest in psychology and it shows in the saga. Sith behavior such as the rule by the strong, the domination and control of others, the obsession with power of all kinds, the quest for immortality, forsaking morality or ethics for the pursuit of goals etc?these things stem from great fear. Throughout the saga we hear (mostly from Yoda) that fear is what entices one to the dark side. In this view the good guys are braver: to have that kind of power but resist the temptation to think might makes right, to refrain from using it as they could, and to not give in to hate even when it could make them more powerful during great times of personal need. To refuse power because it is right, especially when it makes things harder on you, requires a great courage and moral fortitude. As does trusting in the way of things rather than trying to control events yourself.
  23. alansmithee85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Perhaps. What is smart isn?t always what is cowardly though it is often. What is brave isn?t always foolish, though it is often. A man who sees someone being mugged on the subway and decides to stop it is both foolish and brave. Brave because obviously, and foolish because he has no idea who the mugger is and what he has on him. Good point. [face_thinking] indeed.
  24. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I've made that point because I think people are mixing things up here often. I've read statements that Palpatine is a coward because in order to eliminate the Jedi order and overtake the galaxy he choose to hide and deceive rather than come out and fight. Well, how good are the chances of one man plus his respective apprentice to accomplish this goal if he decides to comes out and fight against a thousand Jedi? To rush and start fighting rather than planning has nothing to do with bravery, but all the more with foolishness.

    A coward, as I understand it, is someone who runs when it comes to defending or standing up for his goals or his principles, someone who is unwilling to take calculated risks. Not someone who's unwilling to risk his neck without there being a need for it.
  25. alansmithee85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2005
    I would not say that how Palpatine destroyed the Jedi was cowardly. It wasn?t a brave act, but it wasn?t cowardly. Though in a way, by eliminating the Jedi rather than engaging in debate as to the relative merits of their points of view is in a way, a very abstract way, cowardly. Now of course the notion is silly as they can?t coexist with one another, but still it is a thought.

    As for the second paragraph, the definition of coward is one who shows fear in the face of danger or pain. That is very ambiguous, but hey that?s the dictionary. With that ambiguity we could say that some of Palpatine?s actions are cowardly, even though the best move tactically. He is afraid to face Yoda despite being more powerful, he is afraid to take his master head on. We don?t know about Plagueis, but taking on Yoda was definitely a calculated risk?and really low on the risk end. Plus that definition also fits into my statement about anyone who uses the dark side is usually motivated by a great fear, and thus a coward.
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