The Bashers' Sanctuary Strikes Back

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Binary_Sunset, Mar 23, 2002.

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  1. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    According to my clock, this thread has 23 hrs. 15 min. left...
    The clock is tickin', get your last shots in now! Later incarnations of the Sanctuary won't ever be this massive...

    Binary
    I hope you got something really good in mind in restarting the new Sanctuary thread, I don't want being a "basher" to become the new "cool" thing and we don't need any gimmicks...
    "Look, it's a basher with a curved double-bladed lightsaber with horns and a bucket on his head!... That's soo sweeet! I'm gonna pee my Boba Fett underoos now!"

    I really don't want to see a known "TPM lover" start it, that just makes the Bashers' Sanctuary look as though it's trying to look "respectable" or to keep the PT lovers appeased because "One of their own saw the need for this".

    We don't need that, we're not happy with the state of SW, and if some people can't deal with that, then I say "forget them"!
    We're the Rebels, dude. We're fighting the Lucas Empire and cutting through the double-speak, fan delusions/spin and hype to get at the real problems... don't cheapen it!

    The only thing I'd like to see is if a SW celebrity started it, that would be cool! :D
    And it would really make some people angry! [face_laugh]


    BTW, are we gonna have credits for the final post?

    23 hrs. 5 mins. remaining...

    BTW, George 15, that was a lousy attempt at bashing the OT... you didn't even complain about how crappy the aliens in ANH looked! 8-}
    You didn't even mention Ewoks either and that's a free and easy shot! [face_shocked]
  2. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "The scene in the Wampa cave provides ample opportunity for the introduction of Luke's character; and it's not as slow as you make it out to be. A lot happens in those opening fifteen minutes. In those opening fifteen minutes, we establish Luke and Han's developed friendship"

    Could have happend at the base.

    "Luke demonstrating his power in the Force, his being able to take care of himself"

    He proved that in ANH.

    "AND the moments leading up to the rescue establish the droids, Han and Leia's relationship, and a plot point that leads nicely into Act II. That's quite a bit in fifteen minutes, and it is all conveyed to us with THINGS ACTUALLY GOING ON."

    Their friendship has already been established in ANH.This is all redundant.We know they are close friends with strong emotional bonds and what not.

    "And Obi-wan's instructions for Dagobah wouldn't have worked anywhere else. No other time would Luke be alone to recieve a message from Obi-wan. And it also becomes a theme for the film that mirrors the ending of the same film, Obi-wan coming to Luke for assistance in his time of need. His appearance on Hoth accentuates his absence over Bespin."

    So he couldn't of simply told him that at the base.He was trying to subtly make a point?If you say so.I personally feel your exaggerating the importance of Obi telling Luke about Yoda in a precarious situation.I thinks it purely circumstantial.That brings me to my next point.Why did Obi wait so long to tell Luke about Yoda?Why not tell him in ANH?

    "Yes, it's called "mounting tension." Unlike AOTC, an actual conflict between the two characters is being developed, so that way they have a clash and there's emotion and purpose behind it, not for no real reason like Dooku and Anakin."

    Ya that duel had no coherent reason to take place.Oh wait ya it does."If Dooku escapes rally more star systems to his cause he will."So inorder to avert that from happening they had to defeat Dooku,thus ending the war.

    "Luke was set up to fight Vader, he is being prepared so he can do what he does and it can make sense. You see him training and you see him being warned about the wrong decisions, he is being prepared for when he goes off on his own. Without these moments of levity, the conflict becomes a pointless action scene."

    You misunderstood.I'm talking about right when Luke lands on the planet and then Yoda puts on that act.I know,I know it was just a test,but if he had introduced himself to Luke right away it would of accelerated all the training scenes and such,thus speeding up the movie.


    "Which "pointless" scenes are those? The ones that develop the conflict? Or the ones that develop the characters and their relationships?"

    I already pointed them out.Luke being captured.Rescue mission.Han and the gang landing on the astroid for far too long.

    "And don't worry, George, your opinions are indeed welcomed. Just expect to back them up."

    Wow!That's a stark contrast to earlier reaction of my criticisms.
  3. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "BTW, George 15, that was a lousy attempt at bashing the OT... you didn't even complain about how crappy the aliens in ANH looked!
    You didn't even mention Ewoks either and that's a free and easy shot!"

    Hey I liked the aliens,but the Ewoks are a totaly different matter. 8-}
  4. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "Honestly, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously after that last post?"

    I thought I made some valid criticisms and if you disagree I'd loved to hear your rebuttal.
  5. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    22hrs. and 28. mins. remaining....

    I say we have a 24 hr. (Well, a bit less now!) posting marathon! I don't have anything to do...

    Send this sucker off with a very, big explosion! :D

    BTW, excuse me if I don't take part in defending the OT or "Holy Trilogy". I'm affliced with "rose-colored" glasses and can't see flaws. ;)
    (Hope I don't trade my "rose-colored" glasses in for a "rose-colored" rifle scope!)

    Seriously, the biggest thing that ever pissed me off over the OT was ROTJ ("Leia, Leia's my sister!" and Vader being a wuss!) and the flipped-frames, continuity glitches....
    The only time I really had any anger over the OT was after the Special Edition. But I'm tired of beating THAT dead Bantha!
  6. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Could have happend at the base."

    yes and it would have been boring and expository, all done in dialogue instead of intertwined with action. oh yeah, you prefer the PT's style of: blah, blah, blah, "you are my old friend". move to another location. blah, blah, blah "we have had great adventures together that no one got to actually see so lets just talk about them" blah, blah, blah.

    'Luke demonstrating his power in the Force, his being able to take care of himself'

    "He proved that in ANH."

    and further reinforced that and showed the audience he had grown stronger in the force in these scenes, far beyond anything we learned in ANH.


    "Their friendship has already been established in ANH.This is all redundant.We know they are close friends with strong emotional bonds and what not."

    and we actually got to SEE it grow even stronger, and just how close they have become in the next film, not redundant: developing and growing.


    "So he couldn't of simply told him that at the base.He was trying to subtly making a point?If you say so.That brings me to my next point.Why did Obi wait so long to tell Luke about Yoda?Why not tell him in ANH?"

    do you actually want to see anything other than people standing around telling plot details to one another? oh yeah, again thats why you like the PT.

    "Ya that duel had no coherent reason to take place.Oh wait ya it does."If Dooku escapes rally more star systems to his cause he will."So inorder to avert that from happening they had to defeat Dooku,thus ending the war."

    now you want action instead of people just blabbing out the plot? they could have just trapped Dooku in an net, or tripped him, or conked him on the head with a vase. or it could have happened off-screen like the rest of the PT and characters could have stood around talking about it, instead of that silly lightsaber fight for the sake of having one. just like the silly mario adventure in the factory. George, like you, felt the film needed more generic action in spots a, b, and c, so he stuck them in.

    "You misunderstood.I'm talking about right when Luke lands on the planet and then Yoda puts on that act.I no,I no it was just a test,but if he had introduced himself to Luke right away it would of accelerated all the training scenes and such,thus speeding up the movie."

    oh, ok, you just want a speedier movie. well then cut out all the dialogue and blow stuff up for an hour. you will love episode III AVBE. it seems you have no interest in character intereaction or development, or real emotion between the heroes for that matter. the PT was made just for you!


  7. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "it seems you have no interest in character intereaction or development, or real emotion between the heroes for that matter."

    Of course I'm fully in favor of character interaction and development and emotion,but not to the extent where it makes the film mindnumbingly boring.

    "he PT was made just for you!"

    Of course it was.I enjoy more dramatic and sophisticated movies.Not ones that are superficial and as deep as a puddle.

  8. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
  9. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Of course it was.I enjoy more dramatic and sophisticated movies.Not ones that are superficial and as deep as a puddle."

    is it opposite day? why didnt i get a memo?
  10. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "is it opposite day? why didnt i get a memo?"

    I sent you an email.Don't you remember?
  11. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Could have happend at the base.


    As DrE said, if it had been, you'd have said it was boring and dull. And how would it have been possible? You've simply said it, but provided no feasible alternatives. Bashers think these things out to the point of having alternatives that may work. You say it could have happened on base, how? Where? When would Luke have the time to see an apparition? Before the Battle of Hoth, like at the end of the Death Star sequence? That would be "redundant."

    He proved that in ANH.


    What we see in ESB is a development of what we saw in ANH. It would be ridiculous to have him at the same level of the Force as he was at the end of the first film.

    Their friendship has already been established in ANH.This is all redundant.We know they are close friends with strong emotional bonds and what not.


    Films have beginnings, middles, and ends. Just because we know them from the first movie, doesn't mean we just assume them to be friends at the beginning of the second. That would be sloppy writing, it would be like something out of the PT.

    So he couldn't of simply told him that at the base.He was trying to subtly make a point?If you say so.I personally feel your exaggerating the importance of Obi telling Luke about Yoda in a precarious situation.I thinks it purely circumstantial.That brings me to my next point.Why did Obi wait so long to tell Luke about Yoda?Why not tell him in ANH?


    Why would be tell him in ANH? He didn't think he would meet his old apprentice at the Death Star, he probably thought it was gonna be an old Jedi covert mission. Get that over and done with, get the princess home, and continue Luke's training on Dagobah.

    Clearly that didn't happen, so he told Luke the first chance he had, when there would be no outside interference. He knew Luke had the will to survive in the cold, he's Skywalker, so he told him at that precise moment. It's intimate and curt.

    Ya that duel had no coherent reason to take place.Oh wait ya it does."If Dooku escapes rally more star systems to his cause he will."So inorder to avert that from happening they had to defeat Dooku,thus ending the war.


    And it was completely pointless in having Anakin there. It could have been any Jedi, unlike the duel with Vader and Luke. It was unique and properly developed. Anakin fought Dooku for no reason. They had no anamosity. Obi-wan didn't know him, why should the audience care? Because the Jedi were killed? The Jedi aren't properly developed, why care about them? We care more for the Rebels as they're being slaughtered at Hoth. We care for them because they have a cause and an opponent we know, that is non-existant in AOTC.

    You misunderstood.I'm talking about right when Luke lands on the planet and then Yoda puts on that act.I know,I know it was just a test,but if he had introduced himself to Luke right away it would of accelerated all the training scenes and such,thus speeding up the movie.


    Then you'd complain about there being nothing going on in the sequence.

    I already pointed them out.Luke being captured.Rescue mission.Han and the gang landing on the astroid for far too long.


    Not really, I pointed to their point, so they are not pointless. They had a purpose.

    Wow!That's a stark contrast to earlier reaction of my criticisms.


    Not really, I approached your criticisms the same as I did before, with actual responses; the same as everyone's here. There's always been a level of respect for those with opinions differing from ours, even for the trolls that come in from time to time; which is a STARK contrast to your "I don't care" you provided in response to mine.
  12. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Hmmm... I see an PT edit of the OT now...

    VADER: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father."

    LUKE: He told me enough. He told me you killed him!"

    CUT TO: Lando, Leia and the gang running through the corridors of Cloud City. Many new windows and CG backdrops added.

    C-3PO: Oh my! This whole situation is making me fall apart!

    R2-D2: BLLLAAP!

    CHEWBACCA: ROOOAR!!

    CUT TO: Luke and Vader's continuing discussion at the gantry.

    LUKE: That's not true!

    VADER: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

    CUT TO: Lando and the gang running through the corridiors of Cloud City. Many new windows and CG backdrops added.

    LANDO: We've got to make it to the Falcon. Give me that blaster!

    Lando takes Leia's blaster and runs through the halls doing flips and cartwheels, blasting every trooper in sight as his bell bottoms flutter.

    CUT TO: Luke and Vader's continuing discussion at the gantry.

    VADER: Come with me. It is the only way...

    Luke falls into the abyss...

    LUKE: Emperor's scream from ROTJ S.E. edited in....

    CUT TO: Lando and the gang in the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon.

    LANDO: That was great how we were able to get onto the ship.

    LEIA: Artoo was very creative.

    LANDO: Uh oh! We've got TIE Fighters following us, I'll get to to the main gun. Stay here, I'll handle them!

    The Falcon performs many acrobatic manuevers to evade the TIE's.

    CHEWBACCA: ROOOAR!

    LEIA: Lando said to stay here and that's what I'm going to do!
    I'll try spinning, that's a good trick!

    The Falcon performs many acrobatic spinning manuevers to evade the TIE's.

    CUT TO: Luke hanging from the bottom of Cloud City.

    CUT TO: Vader walking through the corridors of Cloud City.

    VADER: Alert my shuttle to prepare for my arrival.

    CUT TO: Luke hanging from the bottom of Cloud City.

    LUKE: Ben, why didn't you tell me...

    CUT TO: Vader walking through the corridors of Cloud City.

    VADER: Alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival.

    Vader walks onto the landing platfrom and boards his shuttle.

    CUT TO: The Millennium Falcon blasts two of it's pursuers.

    LANDO: I can't hit them all. They're coming in too fast.

    LEIA: Get up here!

    Lando rushes to the cockpit.

    LEIA: Luke? Chewie, go back!

    Everything else is the same, essentially. It's gonna be something like that...

    22 hrs. 55 min. remaining...



  13. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "which is a STARK contrast to your "I don't care" you provided in response to mine."

    Well what did you want me to say?I'm truly,deeply sorry you've lost all respect for the jedi,and before I depart from this forum,I want you to know.
  14. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
  15. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
  16. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "We care more for the Rebels as they're being slaughtered at Hoth."

    Why?What exactly in ANH and ESB warranted us sympathizing for them?The empire hasn't done anything to them.They are all traitors and we glorify them.Hmmmm seems to me that GL is sending the wrong message.They committed acts of treason and they're getting what they deserve.The Empire is only "striking back".
  17. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "Thank you."

    Your very welcome. 8-}
  18. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    How are they seen as traitors?
  19. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "How are they seen as traitors?"

    Well for one they destroyed the death star.I'd say that alone warrants being labled a traitor.
  20. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Um... Here's some more...

    Luke is suspended from the ceiling of the Wampa cave. He awakens and reaches for his lightsaber.

    CUT TO: The Wampa eating.

    CUT TO: A beautiful CG matte painting of the mountain that houses the Rebel Base with a dramatic sky. Han Solo arrives and climbs off his TaunTaun.

    HAN: Ugh! You smell horrible!

    The Taun Taun lets out a fart...

    HAn: P U!

    CUT TO: Luke calms himself and uses the Force to levitate his saber into his waiting hand.

    CUT TO: The Wampa rises and stomps menacingly towards Luke.

    CUT TO: The Rebel Base...

    C-3PO: No, Artoo, I don't think it's pretty here. My joints are freezing and when I thaw I'm afraid I'll fall apart!

    R2-D2: BLEEP! BLOOP!

    CUT TO: Luke slices the ice surrounding this boots with the saber and drops to the snow.

    CUT TO: The Wampa rushes towards Luke.

    CUT TO: A BIGGER Wampa runs and tackles the first Wampa.

    LUKE: Whew! There's always a bigger beast.

    CUT TO: The first Wampa strikes at Luke. Luke severs his arm. The second Wampa attacks the wounded one.

    LUKE: Only the strong survive.

    Luke runs out of the cave. His lightsaber sounds like it's being extinguished, but the blade remains.

    More to come?

    22 hrs. and... AW forget it!


  21. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    ""You misunderstood.I'm talking about right when Luke lands on the planet and then Yoda puts on that act.I no,I no it was just a test,but if he had introduced himself to Luke right away it would of accelerated all the training scenes and such,thus speeding up the movie."


    Lucas specifically adapted much of the training portion of ESB from the books of Carlos Castaneda, to the point where some of the dialogue (the Luminous Beings speech, for one) is all but verbatim from what was in the books. In many ways, Yoda was don Genaro to Ben's don Juan. It made perfect sense to show Yoda's prankster side before Luke realized that the weird little green elf rummaging in his supplies and snagging his food was actually the Jedi master he'd come to find.

    It's called "story", it's called "character development", it's called "craftsmanship". The problem with the PT (or, at least ONE of the problems) is that it rushes through almost EVERYTHING... the scenes are given no time to breathe for the most part, and the characters are given no opportunity to develop. Lucas really has developed an unfortunate tendency to cater to the zero-attention-span MTV set with these new movies, and it's really hurt the quality of the PT. Every scene has to be done and over with and onto something else before it even begins... that's no way to tell a story.
  22. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Well for one they destroyed the death star.I'd say that alone warrants being labled a traitor.


    Yeah, those jerks, blowing up a large laser that destroyed a peaceful planet without weapons.
  23. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "Well for one they destroyed the death star.I'd say that alone warrants being labled a traitor."


    Why, how Republican of you... ;)

    Seriously man, come on... you've got to be pulling our legs here. The Rebels are traitors for having destroyed a doomsday machine which was being used to murder billions of innocent people with one shot?

    The Empire was murdering people outright. They had designed and built a space station for this express purpose. In doing so, they had forfeited any legitimacy that they may have had as a government. In fact, from what we've seen in the PT, it's looking like the very genesis of the Empire was little more than an act of political piracy.

    Treason, my back porch... there was absolutely nothing treasonous about what the Rebels did. Taking back the government from those who had seized it in bad faith a generation before isn't treason... it's taking responsibility for the return and preservation of freedom to the galaxy. In other words... it's good ol' fashioned heroism.
  24. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    ANOTHER PT edited OT scene...

    Luke turns with his blaster in his hand. He aims it at a strange green creature.

    CREATURE: Away out your weapon, I mean you no harm. Why are you here?

    LUKE: I'm looking for someone.

    CREATURE: Found someone you have. Yoda, the Jedi Master, I am.

    LUKE: You're Yoda? The Jedi Master?

    OBI-WAN: This is my former master.

    YODA: I am Yoda, yes! Obi-Wan reckless were you, told him I trained him, did he? Forgot about Qui-Gon Jinn! I only trained him as youngling!

    OBI-WAN: I was reckless when I was younger and I hated to fly.

    LUKE: Ben? What is he talking about? Who else was your master?

    YODA: Qui-Gon Jinn, former master of his, died in battle. Discovered your father, a powerful Jedi was he.
    Come! For the Jedi, it is time to eat!

    END SCENE
  25. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "Why, how Republican of you..."

    Never call me that again.I'm a donkey for sure.

    BTW about Yoda's little masquerade,(actually I thought it was quite humorous)I really have no problem with that scene.I was just trying to point out the lack of excitment during the middle part of ESB and how I wish there was some injected into it,that's all.
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