The Battle of Endor I

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by EndorRebelScum, Feb 9, 2005.

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  1. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    The connection of Anakin's Theme to theh Imperial March is well-documented.

    This is thematic score. I have yet to see any evidence that JW took a bit of non-thematic score and turned it into DOTF or ATS. "Bridging the gap" means connecting the themes.

    Honestly, I've seen these claims before, which started out with an over-eager fan claiming that JW had really written DOTF back in 1980 and hidden it in the ESB score.
  2. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    Obi-Frans, I don't you think understand. Of course it makes sense for Williams to use a lighter version of the Emperor's Theme sung by children in the finale of TPM. And of course the connection between Darth Vader's Theme and Anakin's Theme makes sense.

    However, what General Kenobi is asking for is a clear instance where Williams used a non-thematic (not the Emperor's Theme; not Darth Vader's Theme) cue in the OT to create a PT theme.

    Lars_Muul has not provided such a clear example. The reason he hasn't done so is because such an instance doesn't exist.



    "Now that's what I mean with negative. You just say "I don't think so" and nothing more.
    Maybe I'm being uber-sensitive here, but it just sounds so harsh to me.
    "

    You have got to be flipping kidding me.
  3. EndorRebelScum Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2004
    star 3
  4. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    You have got to be flipping kidding me.

    No, I am not. It sounded harsh and even dismissive.
    Maybe that's the way we express ourselves here on JC, I don't know. I just know that I would never say something like that without explaining myself.
    We're all different, though, so I can't expect everyone to think like me.



    JC is like a bowl of water
    /LM
  5. Charth_Maul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    This thread should be locked.

    THERE IS NO DUEL OF THE FATES IN THE OT. NONE OF IT. AND THERE HAS YET TO BE GIVEN ANY PROOF.
  6. EndorRebelScum Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2004
    star 3
    You don't get the point of the thread. I am posotive and sure, that John Willaims listened to the OT soundtrack before scoring the PT scores. I am not saying they are ripped right out of the soundtrack, but they were inspiration. You just don't see past the notes, do you? You arent't a musician, are you?
  7. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    "I am posotive and sure, that John Willaims listened to the OT soundtrack before scoring the PT scores."

    Whoa there, you're really going out on a limb to claim that. Seriously, of course he listened to the OT scores before scoring the prequels. He did his research; no doubt.


    "You just don't see past the notes, do you? You arent't a musician, are you?"

    Are you kidding me? This has nothing do with being a musician. Someone who has never read a single note of music might somehow "hear" Duel of the Fates in TESB, and a musician of twenty years might not. Don't even try to act like knowing how to read and play music has anything to do with this. You say DOTF is in TESB, I say it isn't.

    But I played clarinet for 5 years in grade school so that means I'm right. SIKE!
  8. --Darth_Ganondorf-- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2003
    star 3
    Me, yeah I think it's fun to try and pick out small cues from the OT that resemble themes from the PT, but it's nothing more than a coincidence. I'd be surprised to hear otherwise, but it doesn't seem impossible. Still, the odds point to a coincidence.
  9. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    If anyone wants to think they hear DOTF in the OT scores, I certainly can't stop you. That's nice for you. But I do dismiss it as nonsense to think that JW lifted DOTF off of a short phrase he wrote in 1980. If you think I am being negative by not sharing your view, so be it. What do you want me to say? "Oh, sure, you must be right because you said so!"?
  10. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    No, I want you to state your opinion in a nice way.
    That's all. If you won't, I can't make you.



    Star Wars fans are like a widescreen format
    /LM
  11. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I don't think "I don't think so" is negative. Brief but nothing else.

  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I give up. I didn't mean to pick on anyone. Sorry for the inconvenience, Gen Ken.



    Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker
    /LM
  13. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Lars_Muul has not provided such a clear example. The reason he hasn't done so is because such an instance doesn't exist.

    What's there to provide?

    We all have the movies, we all have ears, we all have different perceptions - for instance, i have never heard a hint of DotF in ESB myself. I do get a hint of "DarkSide Beckons" in some Across the Stars renditions and vice verca though. It is perfectly possible that it was never John Williams intend to bridge those 2 melodies - yet i still hear a resemblance.

    I really don't know what i could ever do to make any of you hear it too, other then to suggest you try humming the darkside beckons while visualizing some of the Anakin/Padme scenes. Outside of that i'm clueless, i don't have the power to alter your perception so that it fits mine.

    Although i'm trying, so you'll have to give me some time ;)

    - O_F
  14. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    "I do get a hint of "DarkSide Beckons" in some Across the Stars renditions and vice verca though. It is perfectly possible that it was never John Williams intend to bridge those 2 melodies - yet i still hear a resemblance."


    Agreed! I do actually hear hints ATS in The Dark Side Beckons! In fact, out of all these arguments for PT-themes-in-the-OT, this one is the strongest.

    However, I certainly don't think he used this cue of The Dark Side Beckons to create Across the Stars. I know other people have stated that parts of ATS sound a lot like parts of the Hook score! Did he listen to Hook and his other works before scoring the PT and use those melodies to create some of the PT themes? I guess we're getting into a topic bigger than just "Battle of Endor I" though, aren't we? :p

    But hey, on the plus side, you just got me to listen to Across the Stars right now because of this discussion. I can thank you for that. :D

    \\sits back and enjoys waking up to ATS
  15. EndorRebelScum Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2004
    star 3
    It's like Shindler's List's score sounds alot like some Harry Potter Music (Mostly like "Double Trouble" form the latest) All in All, it's all in the mind of the master, John Williams.
  16. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Umm never heard that one... and it would be Harry Potter that sounds like Schindler's List. The masterpiece that is SL came first.

  17. EndorRebelScum Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2004
    star 3
  18. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Well, this used to be my favorite forum. Jesus people, lighten up. He's just asking a question.

    And yeah, TDSB is highly reminiscent of the Emperor's Theme.
  19. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    Just to continue repeating what has already been said for those who don't understand it: No one is saying DOTF is IN the OT, but music similar to it is there. Just like ATS is similar to the theme from Hook. Get it? Inspiration, not copying.
  20. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    No one is saying DOTF is IN the OT

    Yes, they are. Witness:

    Williams listened and put some of theese melodies into the prequels.

    Another place in the OT you can hear DOTF is "The Training of a Jedi Knight"(ESB 1:12 IIRC) about :20 in.

    The clash of lightsabers has a haunting rendition of DOTF, 0:30 into the track.
  21. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    So you chose to take my statement THAT literal? Your loss, pal.
    Regardless of what you see when you read that line, I did not mean that JW had written DOTF for TESB. What I meant was that I hear the beginning of the melody of DOTF in that track. Ever since TPM, I've always heard it.
    That does not mean that it is DOTF, but it still is the beginning of the melody of DOTF. Or, if you want to split hairs, it sounds like the beginning of the melody of DOTF.

    Since it does sound like it, though, I don't see anything wrong with saying that it is a statement of the DOTF theme, since it's in an episode of Star Wars. It wasn't written to be DOTF, but now it works as an echo of it.
    It fits the scene as well, since it's a duel of fates for Luke.
    Maybe you can't hear it, though. Then I feel sorry for you, because to me, it adds to the drama.



    DOTF is now in TESB
    /LM
  22. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    Now you are talking in circles. It is but it isn't? Come on. [face_plain]

    Please say what you mean and mean what you say in order to avoid confusion.
  23. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Alright then:

    The cue was not written to be DOTF, but since the relase of TPM, it works as a brief(and a bit creepy) statement of it.
    So, even though DOTF was never written for TESB, I say that it IS in TESB.

    Which means that I meant what I said, but not in the way I think you interpreted it.
    If you don't agree though, that's fine.



    Six episodes, two trilogies, one saga
    /LM
  24. EndorRebelScum Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2004
    star 3
  25. Charth_Maul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
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