Rogue One The Battle of Scarif -- How It Compares

Lucas's blend of dramatic beats and images and sounds and music and everything in ROTJ and TPM is really peak stuff on a filmmaking perspective, but the king is still Yavin which is a masterclass of editing.

Scarif is a different beast - you feel the infrastructure of the battle more, it's a bit less about the filmmaking rhythm and more about the internal logistics. The arrival of the Death Star is a stunning, beautiful, and terrifying moment, and the arrival of the Devastator is just as good.

 

I'm in agreement. Without listing all the battles (and not having watched the prequels in a few years), I'd say the ones that stick out off the top of my head are DS1 (ANH) > Hoth (ESB) > Scaris (RO) > Endor (ROTJ) > everyone else

 

Hmmm, having watched all SIX movies over six Sundays in November and December, as well as Episodes 4-7 in a row last Saturday, thanks to Fox Movies having this SW marathon in conjunction with R1, these are my favorite "big skirmishes" amongst all the movies:
1. Death Star 1 (ANH)
2. Battle of Endor (ROTJ)
3. Scarif (R1)
4. Battle of Hoth (ESB)
5. Starkiller Base (TFA)
6. Naboo (TPM)
7. Coruscant (ROTS)
8. Genosis (AOTC)

 

Comparing ≠ Discussing. There are lots of ways of discussing something without endlessly comparing it to it relative. I can discuss my kids all day long without comparing them to each other.

 

^ "Compare" is in the title, so nothing in here should surprise you. Your on-topic thoughts are welcome, if you have any.

 

Taking them as complete battles – space and ground – and satisfying cinematic experiences that are supposed to move the story along and not just provide explosions, I’d list as follows:

Endor (ROTJ)

Still not wild about the teddy bears, but in action, they’re as valuable as all the other troops, and the space battle itself remains the high bench mark, particularly when the Rebels take on the Imperial Fleet at close range and their flight into Death Star II’s superstructure.

2. Scarif (R1)

This was a pretty close thing – I think it’s just the choreography and editing of ROTJ that wins it for me. Scarif is pretty intense though – and while I’d argue that the intent – for it to disorientate – is successful, there’s just a tad too much going on in any one frame. It looks and feels more visceral and photorealistic than Star wars has ever been, but all that grit is also designed and layered for the pause button generation. That said, I loved every second.

3. Hoth (TESB)

Elegant, stark and beautifully composed, frame by beautiful frame. It’s so cartographically sound, you understand every moment, even though the sense of fighting and flak is oppressive. The colors and look of it all, even now, are astonishing. Near perfect visual storytelling.

4. Battle of Yavin (Death Star, ANH)

The original and blueprint for all that followed. It’s clean and, by modern standards perhaps a bit simple, but remains exciting. It owes a lot to John Williams.

5. Coruscant (ROTS)

Fantastic opening battle. Suffers from being a little too busy in places, but does give you the sense of being in the middle of all this overwhelming firepower.

6. Starkiller Base (TFA)

Sort of the same problem as Coruscant in that it’s overly busy in places. The battle On Takanoda earlier in the same film is great, although both X-Wings and TIE Fighters suddenly behave like they’re utterly weightless and subject to no forces of inertia in certain sequences. (They probably aren’t in the SW universe, but the way they move occasionally just looks weirdly unnatural to the eye.)

7. Naboo (TPM)

Fantastic lightsaber battle on the ground, fun space battle, ground battle messy and distracting (hi Jar-Jar).

8. Geonosis (AOTC)

The worst, by some distance. The arena fight with the monsters is fun, the arrival of the Jedi cool, but it quickly degenerates into something messy, ugly and just stupid in places, especially when Padme falls out of her vehicle. While Scarif is a lengthy battle and deliberately feels disorientating, this one just gets boring. Which is the worst thing you can feel when watching the spectacle of Star Wars. I think I even prefer Geonosis II in The Clone Wars.

 

I've got to say that I continue to be a bit floored by comments like this.

The Battle of Endor is the definition of "grand scale". There is literally nothing "minor" about it. The scope was enormous, and 30 years later continues to impress. It is a larger scale operation, in both stakes and scale, than Scar

How was the land battle any more extensive than Hoth?

Since you dismissed CGI droids I'll skip the large scale PT battles.

Lets please stop comparing living, breathing children to Star Wars films.

Anyway you shake it, it's a bad analogy.

 

Note the words 'felt like'. Episode VI is my favorite Star Wars movie, and I love the battle of Endor, but it's not really shot like some huge epic battle. Like all the main Saga films, it gives a much more personal take on the battle and what's at stake.

Scarif, by comparison, seemed gritty and expansive. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just they're both very effective at doing very different things.

 

i keep raving about the POV x-wing shots. Like the x-wing coming out of light speed with the imperial fleet in front of it. sooooo gooood.

 

Just left the theater and I was blown away by the Battle of Scarif. IMHO it is easily the best Star Wars battle sequence put to film. Unfortunately after seeing how incredible the first major victory of the Rebellion was, it's going to be tough to go back and watch the land portion of the Rebellion's final victory.

If I were to go through and rank the battles it would probably look like this..

1) Scarif
2) Hoth
3) Yavin IV
4) Endor (Space Segment)
5) Coruscant
6) Naboo
7) Starkiller
8) Geonosis
9) Endor (Land Segment)

Just to be clear these rankings don't include Lightsaber duels, which I believe should be ranked separately. Thus the Battle of Naboo doesn't have the Duel of the Fates, Endor does not have Luke v Vader, Starkiller is just a mediocre trench run repeat, etc.

 

I don't know where to place it just yet.

 

Extremely interesting to see the Battle of Endor, widely heralded as one of the most epic space battles laid to film, being recast as an intimate, personal take on a battle.

Close to 30 star destroyers alone are seen onscreen during Endor. This doesn't include the dozens of swarming Tie fighters, a functioning Death Star, and the sizable, though much smaller, Rebel fleet. We have the Millennium Falcon, accompanied by a few rebel fliers, weaving through the intricate interior of the massive new battle station. We're talking about a massive endeavor, with at least 100 ships seen onscreen, and dialogue indicating more.

Does Scarif double that size? Is the battle fought over a far greater distance? Can I get some actual facts to back up that Scarif was far more expansive than Endor? Perhaps I am missing something, and I have no issue conceding that I could be wrong.

I mean if we're just talking about "expanse" and density here, the battle above Coursant is larger than them both.

 

I have a hard time ranking things as I mostly just do the five star thing. Love, Like, Ok, Could've been better, suck. I'm a Star Wars fan through and through, so I really don't have anything in the suck category. But I will give the rankings a try because it is a great topic.

From Best to Worst
1. RotJ Endor: This had everything. Emotional saber fight, multiple locations, strategy, purpose. Obviously the saber battle/dark side test was the center, but I really enjoyed that the space fleet came in with purpose and quickly realized they were led into a trap, debating the validity of whether they should fight or run. The most complex multi-scene battle of all of them. And say what you want about the ewoks, but I liked them as a kid and then had plenty waiting for me as an adult years later.

2. R1 Scarif: I actually enjoyed the first half of the movie more, but that doesn't mean the 2nd half was bad. Anything but. The dropped scenes from the trailer were almost a blessing in that it was a feint that allowed me to be surprised during the entire battle. Ingenious battle tactics, an short but intense boarding raid, beautiful scenery and realistic deaths. What I really liked is the rebel alliance both helped and hurt in their rush to save the day. Their space surprise onslaught is what caused the shields to close, which caused the ground team to rethink their entire game plan. The X-wing+ pilots had just enough emotion without taking away from the other scenes.

3. ANH Yavin: Possibly the simplest of all battle scenes. Here's a target, let's go blow it up. But because it was so simple, it was allowed to be so emotional. Every x-wing casualty felt like a loss. And the visual/audio was great. Not just for its time, but for all time. The TIE fighter roar. The WW2 style dogfights. The moments of too much going on followed by the outside stimuli calming down so Luke can center himself. Simple, yet not.

4. TPM Naboo: Possibly the most complex of all of them in that it was all going on at once. Saber fight, infiltration, space battle, land battle. What hurts it is that individually, I had problems with all but one. The saber fight. But what a saber fight. I doubt it will ever be topped. Hence, the high rating.

5. ESB Hoth: This might actually be the simplest of the battles, purpose wise. The purpose was simply to keep A (AT-ATs) from getting to B (base) while B made it to C (space escape). Despite that simple premise, it was a great setup that mainly can be summed up in one word AT-AT. Besides the visual, we also get to see creative ways for a battle where pure blaster fire was not the answer.

6. RotS Coruscant: Basically two scenes. The space battle and rescue. Both were done extremely well. Easily the best use of spaceships in a space battle. For the first time, we didn't have big capital ships simply directing the small ships where to attack. We got to see the WW2 battle of navy ships with the capital ships. The rescue was both hit and miss, but the throne room scene was a nice call back to RotJ with comparisons to Luke v. Anakin's choices. But the biggest payoff was the call back later when Mace became the Emperor of the Jedi by telling Anakin "He's too dangerous to be left alive" making the Jedi not much better than the Sith. And that was setup in this battle.

7. TFA Starkiller base: The main reason it ranked so low is a) the trench run was about as uninspired as one could get and b) the saber battle conclusion was hack. Compare the trench run to R1 x-wing. About the same amount of screen time setup, but I cared for the R1 pilots. I felt nothing for the TFA pilots. And Poe's big SKB moment felt like a video game level complete scene. The Han Solo scene was pretty good however. The visuals were actually pretty great. I actually predicted 1) Rey was the Luke, not Finn and 2) that she would do well against Kylo, so it wasn't the wrong outcome. But her Last Dragon, video game invincible cheat code was LOL hard to reconcile.

8. AotC Geonosis: The biggest problem with this was it served its purpose too well. Essentially, what makes the battle great is not the battle, but post battle when the Jedi get a moment to step back and realize what they did. In the heat of the moment, they set aside contemplation because they had to do something now and figure it out later. So basically the battle was uninspired because it was somewhat supposed to be uninspired. Just something they had to do at 2pm that they didn't even consider when they woke up that day. The disco saber scene, while unique, was quite the letdown. And although I loved the Yoda saber battle the first viewing, it didn't wear well. A victim of its own premise.

 

I thought that about the Stardestroyers, the only sense you get of them engaging the Rebel fleet is you do hear the distinctive Stardestroyer gunfire in the Profundity's bridge.

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Has it been mentioned yet that Scarif is a near anagram/homophone of Sacrifice?

 

scarif = scarification

 

I'm now wondering if I've got my rankings in the right order. That's the problem with lists, they need constant updating because you remember stuff and review and it all changes.

 

Well, it's not like I'm gonna actually give out grades or anything.

I agree with you though, there are so many things to consider but it's fun to discuss.

 

Again, I'm not talking so much about the actual on-screen details as I am about the way the films were shot, as well as the buildup and payoffs we get throughout the two battles. In that regard, they couldn't be more different.

 

it's pretty good.

 

1. Rogue One (Battle of Scarif)
2. Attack of the Clones (Battle of Geonosis)
3. Return of the Jedi (Battle of Endor)
4. The Phantom Menace (Battle for Naboo)

5. Revenge of the Sith (Battle over Coruscant)
6. The Empire Strikes Back (Battle of Hoth)
7. A New Hope (Destruction of the Death Star)

8. The Force Awakens (Destruction of Starkiller Base)

 

While I won't rate the Battle of Scarif in terms of 1st/2nd/3rd, it's easily on par with the battles depicted in the original trilogy. By contrast the same cannot be said for the battles in the prequels (or even TFA).

Real life battles are always planned and fought with objectives in mind. That's why the OT battles were so endearing to me; they were logical and accurate with the depiction of the conduct and action by a military force.

Battle of Yavin - Objective: Destroy the Death Star to save the rebel base
All fighters move in formation. X-wings provide fighter cover and draw surface fire, Y-wings execute the attack run. X-wings execute run as backup. (Ok this is rather simplistic, but still logical)

Battle of Hoth - Objective: Delay the imperial attack and evacuate the base
Ground forces fights delaying action. Snowspeeders provide ground support. Fighters provide cover for escaping transports. Evacuation proceeds in stages, ground batteries provide artillery support. All remaining forces to meet at a predetermined rendezvous point. (The epitome of operations planning. Everything goes according to plan)

Battle of Endor - Objective: Destroy the Death Star
Ground forces launch surprise attack to destroy shields and disrupt imperial response. Starships provide capital ship screen against any imperial vessels, fighters provide fighter cover. Once shields are down, fighters fly into the core and destroy it. (This gets a little messy due to ewoks and the trap, thus making it even more fun)

Battle of Scarif - Objective: Secure the plans of the Death Star (impromptu because there was no briefing scene)
Ground forces creates diversion and fights delaying action to buy time. Space forces launch surprise attack by jumping right on top of the shield gate to unbalance and disrupt imperial response. Starships engage and delay any imperial vessels/reinforcements, fighters provide fighter cover. One squadron to provide ground support for planetary forces. Starships to provide retrieval if possible.



Now the bad. To be fair, this is based only on the movies and what I can remember. I've not read any of the tie-in books.

Assault on Starkiller base - Objective: Destroy Starkiller base
Han to jump in and disable shields. Once shields are down everyone jumps in and shoot at the oscillator and everything as long as the sun is up. (Really? That's it? No wonder they almost failed)

Battle of Naboo - Objective: Get the chancellor? That is not a military objective.
Fighters to destroy droid control ship (How? They ended up flying straight in shooting),
Gungans to engage the droid army (Why? They ended up marching straight in shooting),

Battle of Geonosis - Objective: Save Anakin and Obi Wan? That is not a military objective.
I don't even know how to describe the plan. There was a lot of lightsabers swinging in the arena, and suddenly everyone was just pouring in their forces shooting and blowing stuff up. Anakin lost his hands and Count Dooku escaped, but what was the military significance and purpose of the engagement?

Battle of Coruscant - Objective: "Save" Palpatine?
Just a lot of ships and shooting and explosions. Even though Palpatine was the mastermind, there has to be some sort of conduct to the operation. What was the separatists's plan? What was the republic's plan? Just jump in shoot and blow everything up?



So yup, the Battle of Scarif was logical and purposeful as a battle. From a cinematography point-of-view, it was concise and well directed in allowing the audience to understand what's going on and the stakes involved.

 

Going by the space only portions of the battles, my rankings are:

1) Endor
2) Scarif
3) Yavin
4) Coruscant
5) Naboo
6) Starkiller Base

 

Scarif is my favorite by far. But it's honestly hard to compare them - I watched the original trilogy for the first time as an adult, so through general osmosis I already knew that the good guys would win and no one would die, leading to less tension and emotional investment while watching. The battles in Rogue One sent my nerves through the roof because the risk of death felt real. And, well, we know how that ended.

(I also loved the fight in the forest at the end of TFA. It looked quite realistic, and Finn - who'd spent the whole movie trying to run away, and was not Force-sensitive, and was alone, and facing a formidable opponent demanding the Skywalker lightsaber - saying 'Come and get it!' and igniting it, despite knowing that he had no chance to win that fight? My favorite.)

 

The sabre duel between Finn/Rey and Kylo in TFA is the high point of TFA ; the space battle was quite a throaway retread of ANH, but the sabre duel is everything we've wanted since ESB.

The acrobatics of the PT was kind of cool and fresh with TPM but got progressively worse as the trilogy wore on and TPM's fight retroactively felt pointless as there was no emotional stakes involved.
TFA's sabre duel was hard fought and had the emotional weight of the one from ROTJ and ESB. It also reflects more of the kendo style of wielding the lightsabre we've grown to love from the OT.

I can't wait to see what they do in episode 8.