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Rogue One The Battle of Scarif -- How It Compares

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Anthology (Released Films)' started by ISSD Executor, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. HaloWithStyle

    HaloWithStyle Jedi Knight star 2

    May 11, 2015
    wtf? That's one of the best shots.
  2. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 23, 2003
    Yeah it's a great shot, but they would have achieved all the same emotions in the audience by cutting the number of TIEs in half. There's more coming out of this base than at Endor...
    Snafu55 likes this.
  3. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2013
    The Battle of Scarif is quickly becoming my favorite battle in SW, and may even replace the Battle of Endor.
  4. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 25, 2000
    "Imperial troops have entered the base! Imperial troops ha-" *static*

    [face_skull] :storm: [face_skull]:vader: [face_skull]
  5. Millennium Falcon 888

    Millennium Falcon 888 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2016
    Fair enough, but let's not forget that a huge Rebel fleet was spotted... I doubt two Star Destroyers are enough to handle the whole bunch which is why the more agile TIE Fighters are needed for dogfights against the X-Wings!

    Having said that, the Battle of Scarif is indeed one of my favorite space fights in any Star Wars movie today... Ranking high up my personal list together with the one at the DS1 as well as the Battle of Endor!

    Sent from MillenniumFalcon.exe using Tapatalk
  6. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 25, 2000
    In reference to several questions about Y-wings, ion bombs, ion cannons, and their effectiveness:

    At Scarif, the ImpStar that got taken out by the Y-Wing bombing run had already lost shields earlier in the battle. As the Y-Wings finish up their run, you can see the blown-out deflector tower. Moreover, they indicated that they'd lost engine power. Likely, with the ship pitching uncontrollably, they couldn't bring turbolaser cannons to bear on the Hammerhead quickly enough.

    Quite simply, nothing the Rebels could bring to bear at Scarif had enough firepower to take down the planetary shield generator.

    As far as how the ion cannon at Hoth was able to bring down a fully-shielded ImpStar Deuce?


    Look at the size of that thing! It's a gun bigger than some of the capital ships that fought at Scarif!
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    According to the newcanon junior novelization of TESB - it wasn't shielded - the ship had dropped its shields in order to lock onto the transport with its tractor beam - just as it achieved lock-on, the ion cannon fired and hit the ship.
  8. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Oct 4, 1998
    According to the old WEG RPG game rules, shields are ineffective against ion cannon.
    Dr_Cthulhu likes this.
  9. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 25, 2000
    Huh... Seems like a rather unnecessary retcon...
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    It would only be a retcon if there was a previous source that specifically stated the shields were up.

    The original novelization didn't say, one way or another (it also attributed the ship as being Needa's, when the actor was a different one)

    The Avenger, one of the Imperial armada's wedge-like Star Destroyers, hovered like a mechanized death angel in the sea of stars outside the Hoth system. As the colossal ship began to move closer to the ice world, the planet became clearly visible through the windows which stretched 100 meters or more across the huge bridge of the warship.
    Captain Needa, commander of the Avenger's crew, gazed out a main port, looking at the planet when a controller came up to him. "Sir, Rebel ship coming into our sector."
    "Good," Needa replied with a gleam in his eyes. "Our first catch of the day."
    "Their first target will be the power generators," General Rieekan told the princess.
    "First transport Three Zone approaching shield," one of the Rebel controllers said, tracking a bright image that could only be an Imperial Star Destroyer.
    "Prepare to open shield," a radarman ordered.
    "Stand by, Ion Control," another controller said.
    A giant metal globe on Hoth's icy surface rotated into position and angled its great turret gun upward.
    "Fire!" came the order from General Rieekan.
    Suddenly two red beams of destructive energy were released into the cold skies. The beams almost immediately overtook the first of the racing Rebel transport craft, and sped on a direct course toward the huge Star Destroyer.
    The twin red bolts struck the enormous ship and blasted its conning tower. Explosions set off by the blast began to rock the great flying fortress, spinning it out of control. The Star Destroyer plunged into deep space as the Rebel transport and its two fighter escorts streaked off to safety.
  11. Kez-Iban

    Kez-Iban Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 4, 2012
    One thing that I thought was strange about the Scarif space battle is that the Rebels brought what seem to be non combat transport ships and what look like medical frigates along with them into the battle. Other than giving viewers familiar looking ships to see in the movie, why would the rebels want to bring so many non combat ships into what was sure to be a major battle? I guess this happened to some extent in Return of the Jedi too, but why? Are these ships more capable in combat than it seems?
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    Presumably "medical frigate" is a conversion, with the standard model, just being "frigate".

    As for the transport ships - in the board game Star Wars Armada, they tend to be used to cooordinate starfighter attacks, among other things:

    According to the newcanon book Complete Locations, there exist armed versions - which the game represents as the "Combat Retrofit" - still not a warship, but capable of attacking other ships to a limited extent.
  13. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 25, 2000
    What I mean is that its unnecessary to say that the shields were down. A few direct hits from a gun the size of a warship should give a ship some serious problems, shields or no shields.
    Hyrum_Solo, jakobitis89 and redxavier like this.
  14. Chancellor Yoda

    Chancellor Yoda Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 25, 2014
    Well this is my ranking of the battles.

    1. Battle of Yavin 4
    2. Battle of Hoth
    3. Battle of Scarif
    4. Battle of Endor
    5. Battle of Coruscant
    6. Battle of Geonosis
    7. Battle of Starkiller base
    8. Battle of Naboo

    I completely agree with people who say Scarif set a new standard for Star Wars battles, ranking above Endor is no easy task.
  15. Luke'sSeveredHand

    Luke'sSeveredHand Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 21, 2014
    Scarif is my all time favorite battle -- it is essentially the "sandbox" brought to the big screen. Fast paced space battle coordinating with tense on-planet events? Sign me up for one of those per movie, please!
    Avnar and Gigoran Monk like this.
  16. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Oct 4, 1998

    My speculation is that the transport ships were carrying soldiers to reinforce the ground assault. Unfortunately, they were too slow to put boots on the ground before the gate closed.
  17. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 23, 2003
    Ok, so do any TIEs get shot down in the battle above the planet? I've seen the sequence a few times now and can't recall seeing any being destroyed by either fighter or capital ship fire.
  18. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 29, 2015
    The space battle above Scarif is the first Space battle I've seen that rivals and possibly surpasses the ROTJ space battle (The only other battles I've seen that have come close were from Battlestar Galactica - the new series of course). I have to give the ROTJ space battle a lot of credit though - I mean it's held up that well and it was optically composited in the early 1980s; that is simply mind blowing.

    As far as land battles go Scarif is the first SW land battle where something at least resembling real infantry tactics were used. It pretty much blows every single other land battle away (other than maybe Hoth, which is pretty incredible itself).

    ROTJ has a great space battle (esp considering when it was made), but the land battle isn't that great - the Ewoks are beyond stupid and the whole thing is fairly ridiculous in concept. (although there are definitely still some cool scenes)

    I think the Yavin battle gets some credit as well for being REALLY, REALLY good considering the technology and budget constraints it was created under.

    So Space battles:

    1. RO/ROTJ - Tie: love them both...... ROTJ gets extra credit for still being one of, if not the best space battle every put to film even though it was optically composited in the 1980s. The only thing I dock ROTJ for is having one of the worst effects shot in any SW film (the executor crashing into the death star). That shot is embarrassingly bad and I can not believe they didn't alter it/replace it for the special editions.

    2. Yavin - Again, extra credit for when it was made... worse technology than ROTJ and FAR less budget. Still holds up well

    3. TFA space battle - It was very well shot and has good tension, but it's lame that they had a retread of ANOTHER Death Star battle (I much prefer the first X-wing/Tie Fighter clash over Maz's place)

    4. ROTS opening - SO SO SO much potential.... started out great. Then it devolves into silliness with Buzz Droids and other nonsense (which completely destroys any tension and ruins the tone).

    5. TPM - The trade federation ships were cool looking, but the battle wasn't great and Anakin accidentally blowing up the ship was just stupid

    Land battles:

    1. RO - Great Land battle; the only one where anything close to realistic infantry tactics are used (well I suppose Hoth isn't that absurd tactics wise either as a delaying action)

    2. Hoth - Awesome..... the thunder of the advancing AT-ATs is still awesome the first time you hear it (and it still looks great despite being stop motion effects from almost 40 years ago).

    3. ROTJ - Some cool stuff - Scout walkers, speeder bikes, etc.... but the entire premise is ridiculous and the Ewoks were a huge, huge, huge mistake (I actually much prefer Luke going HAM on Jabba's people earlier in the movie)

    4. ROTS - There's a bunch of various length land battle scenes in ROTS that are pretty decent (Kashyyk, Utapau, some of the order 66 stuff, etc). The battle droids as always are very hard to take seriously, the tactics are absurd and there's not much tension but the effects are pretty good and I love the look of the clone troopers and their equipment.

    5. AOTC - Honestly it's a mess with even worse tactics than ROTS (both sides just run at each other shooting like the intro of the old GI JOE cartoon? Really?) and some of the dialogue and attempted comedy in the Jedi arena part is just abysmal and completely ruins the tone. Like ROTS the effects are pretty good and I do love the look of the clones and their equipment.

    6. TPM - Pretty much just bad and unlike most of TPM the ground battle effects have aged pretty poorly. However it's the only part of the PT where one can almost take the droid army somewhat seriously - so I'll give it that. Duel of the Fates is awesome (but I'm not including that in my comparison)
    Sarge and Millennium Falcon 888 like this.
  19. Hyrum_Solo

    Hyrum_Solo Jedi Knight star 3

    Jul 1, 2015
    I would hardly consider a junior novelisation canon. Onscreen evidence shows the Ion bolt making contact with the shields on the superstructure and the bridge deflectors.
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    Isn't that the same effect you'd get with an unshielded ship? What would be different?

    It's "more canon" than the old novelizations are, now. Even if it has quirky narration. The transport approaching the star destroyer was compared to a mouse approaching a hungry tiger, and the shields dropping and tractor beam locking on, to a tiger baring its claws.

    Later, a similar comparison is made with the Falcon:

    “Sir! The odds of surviving a direct attack on an Imperial Star Destroyer are—”
    “Shut up!” Leia shouts.
    But in case you want to know, the odds of the Falcon surviving an attack on an Imperial Star Destroyer are about the same as the odds of a lame, half-blind bunny surviving an attack on a hungry tiger. Give or take.
    The ship dives at the Destroyer, lasers blazing.
    It is one brave bunny.
  21. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 29, 2000
    The proposal that the ISD was about to use its tractor beam gains support from the line itself, "first catch of the day", and from Vader's words and deeds. Vader cannot have had confidence that any random SD would know which of any escaping ships would (boolean) Not have Luke Skywalker on it, so as to feel free to fire upon it. Certainly the instruction ‘make sure nothing gets off’ could give mandate to any random SD destroying any ship at all. But the only way to safely Not accidentally destroy a fleeing Skywalker is by the previously demonstrated Imperial means of the tractor beam. It fits with the Devastator vs Tantive IV and DS vs MF. It is not a bald plot armor like “hold your fire, it must have short-circuited.” It is consistent with Imperial troops throughout the OT attempting to take rebels prisoner instead of shooting first, when shooting first is to a reasonable expectation in absence of plot armor. One can assign that to be plot armor, or, one can hold it consistent with the mode of capture by large Imperial vessels. SW77 has, "Bring me the passengers. I want them alive." SW77 detention scene and ESB tanning bed show leverage sought from a prisoner.

    The problem is that this requires that the captain of that SD had no real idea 1) there Was an elephantine ion cannon 2) that was pointed right at his ship 3) that was about to fire Just That Instant. Whereas, Veers had the sensor capability to determine the shield generator location, which was not apparently that much bigger than the ion cannon. So somehow the Imperials did not correctly assess the identity or capability of the ion cannon. Any good retcon of that rectifies the proposal.
  22. Avnar

    Avnar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 20, 2007
    Yes - They do! I have counted at least 3. The ones down on Scarif are easier to see but the ones in the space battle are more "blink and you'll miss" There is one obvious one though.

    I want to know how many U-wings make it down to the surface. When Raddus tells blue squadron to get down there - There are 2. But you only see 1 don't you?
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    The tricky part being how much precedent there had been for "tractor beams require you to drop shields to use them and for ships to be drawn in" in other SW media.

    The scene in question:

    Leia turns to the shield operator. The evacuation coordinator is waiting beside him. They both wait for Leia's command. The princess merely says, "Go."
    For just an instant, there is no defensive shield around the rebel base on Hoth. Three crafts - a transport and two fighters - catapult into space.
    A Star Destroyer stands directly in their path.
    The scene is approximately like three mice running at a tiger. The odds aren't good.
    The Destroyer lowers its shields and readies its tractor beam to bring them in. The tiger is licking its lips.
    The transport and two fighters approach the Destroyer.
    In the rebel command center, General Rieekan wipes his gray brow, and then dries the back of his hand on his sleeve. A droplet of sweat falls to the floor. In a moment, it has frozen.
    The tractor beam locks on the transport.
    The tiger's claws are out.
    "Fire!" Leia bellows. A rebel ion cannon - heavy and huge and deadly and half buried in the ice of Hoth - sends two red blasts up into space, straight over the transport's bow. The blasts roar past the rebel ship and continue straight for the destroyer. The Star Destroyer that has lowered its shields.
    The ion blasts smash into the Star Destroyer's central tower. A tiny lightning storm erupts in the Destroyer's electronic epicenter, which sends shock waves out through the complex of wires that twine through the vessel like veins. The great ship pitches to one side.
    The mice, it turns out, had a gun.
    In the rebel command center on Hoth, a cheer erupts from every throat. The general sighs and warily eyes the princess. She is smiling at him. Reluctantly, he smiles back.
    The transport and two fighters speed by the lurching Imperial ship.

    In TCW, Admiral Trench's Invincible needed to drop shields to launch its torpedoes (Season 2: Cat & Mouse) - so it's possible that something similar applies to Star Destroyers launching or receiving ships.
  24. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 29, 2000
    A thorough glance at this.

    Devastator uses a tractor beam to convey BR to a large unpressurized berth/dock. We could forgivably surmise that during the pursuit, it had its shields up. The shutting down of the main reactor on the BR can indicate that it could no longer fire any weapons strong enough to be concerning to Devastator. So there is no conflict with Devastator having had shields up, then having lowered shields to bring in BR.

    DS uses a tractor beam and conveys the MF through the air shield of a (pressurized) hangar. DS is not described as being protected by “a” unitary shield. There is the ray shield, and there is the “magnetic field” that snub fighters most decidedly get through, so as to moot that field being a shield of consequence. The bit that provides most support for the proposal is the sequence with keywords “pulled” and “shields”, although one must also see the word “port doors” and “outboard”. The air shield most decidedly keeps matter in (and vacuum out). But it is permeable to the MF, which is under the influence of the tractor beam. So the air shield is permeable to tractor beam. The tractor beam is referred to in the singular, so there is no indication of an interior and exterior tractor beam that perform a handoff at the interface of the air shield.
    "Outboard" in its nautical parlance points to an exterior attached engine. So someone can be forgiven for wondering if that originally meant a physical “port / door / port door” that slides across where in the film we see the air shield. In the way that “open the blast doors” was for interior doors (“inboard shields”). ESB script shows that Lucas thought of physical doors as shields, with
    Using the film SW77 as highest authority, which may overrule naive impressions of the script due to Lucas’ imagery-generating portmanteaux, one should conclude that the DS shields, plural, which were not physical attached doors, were down to give access to the tractor beam. Not unless someone comes along and says there are physical doors that slide across - that would violate the SW77 matte painting.

    Additional support can come from the shield on Hoth. It can deflect any bombardment. That means it can deflect a specific energy greater than a ship passing through it, that intends to also maintain structural integrity, life support and role. That means a ship, conventionally understood in GFFA, cannot pass through it. And then the obvious reverse, that the shield must be opened For rebel craft to escape the base. Vader said, Prepare for a surface attack. I.e., aerial attack was moot. Veers said, The shield will be down in moments. You may start your landing. I.e., it was moot to leave in an aerial vehicle until the shield was down. So ships were not getting through *that shield.

    Script support that ships cannot be co-located with the shield is from Leia’s briefing. If the shield was opened solely to permit the ion cannon to fire, the ships would not have a constraint on proximity.
    There is also no conflict in regarding that Avenger while in pursuit was ready to use a tractor beam, up until it might be fired upon or have a ship crashed into it in some desperate maneuver.
    (DS2 had a shield that ships could not get through. It had to be dropped for Tyderium. The novelization and storyboards show fighters smashing into the shield. “The shield
    must be deactivated if any attack is to be attempted.”)
    vncredleader and Iron_lord like this.
  25. Hernalt

    Hernalt Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 29, 2000