Arena "The Beautiful Game" - The Official JCC Football (Soccer) Thread.

Are they a greater side player for player than Pep's Barcelona side?
Maybe not.

But they've achieved a greater feat, which ultimately is what you get remembered for.

If they were runner-up 3 times in a row, would anyone remember in 10 or 20 years?

 

there's an element of pragmatism v romanticism involved in all this. the purists would tell you the manner in which you play football is the most important, to play the beautiful game. this is Wenger's later Arsenal years, the current Liverpool side. the pragmatist would say that the most important thing is winning - no matter how you do it, just win. this is Jose's mentality, clearly. sometimes both these come together, such as Pep's Barca (although frankly i got bored watching them play, but anyway), but usually managers tend to go one way or the other.

ask any player and they will tell you it's all about winning. it has to be about winning. so if i had to choose between a season of ugly 1-0 wins leading to a title, or beautiful football resulting in 4th spot, i'd take the former every time. it's not ideal, but the goal is always to win. ideally there will be some beautiful football in there too.

that said, there is a clear hierarchy. for the top clubs, it's CL and the domestic league. that's it. the FA Cup is nice but it's far below those other two. hence finishing 2nd, thereby indicating you are closer to challenging the winner of one of those two major achievements, is better IMO than finishing 6th, even if you do win one of the lesser Cups. the goal is the title and the CL. if you're a club that hasn't won for awhile then maybe it's different - Tottenham, say, i'm just speaking for clubs like United.

 

Fair enough, I erred in your achievements last year.

So I shall ask another question. What is better? Coming 2nd in the Champions League, or coming 3rd in the group stages then winning the Europa League?

 

Jimmy White. Ivan Lendl. Both known as greats in their respective fields, and neither won their pinnacle tournaments. If you prefer to keep to football. Messi has never won the world cup, nor performed well there. By #richielogic, that makes him a failure.

 

I shall clarify. What is better. Coming 6th in the premiership and winning the Europa league after also failing in the Champions League, or qualifying for the CL outright by coming 2nd in the premier league. Which is the better season?

 

Honestly, that has a different answer since winning Europa gets you into the CL groups.

 

Finishing 2nd in the CL group is better than winning the Europa

And finishing 2nd is better than finishing 6th and winning the Europa. It’s a crap Cup for mid table clubs.

 

Hence saying qualifying outright

 

You get nothing for not winning the CL, especially if you also finish outside Top 4 since you only get back in if you win.

Win the EL & it doesn't matter where in the league you finish, still get into CL.
Plus you get a trophy, which is > losing a final

Why is CL + no trophy ever better than CL + a trophy?

 

So wait you would prefer to win the Europa than lose the CL final?

You have to put yourself into positions where you may fail. Liverpool has the chance of winning the CL which is the ultimate prize, that means far more than the Europa league.

 

CL is the ultimate prize if you win it.

 

Let’s put it this way.

Would you choose a guaranteed Europa league win or to make the CL fine where you have the chance to win or lose?

 

I'd prefer to win the CL, but I'd settle for a trophy Vs being runner up in anything.

Runner-up doesn't get anything other than a well done you tried medal.

That's not how you create winners with winning mentality, you get that by winning trophies.
Not by watching other lift trophies at your expense

 

That’s absolute bs

Sometimes it takes losing a final to spur players on. It builds experience. What you’re suggesting is to take the easy route and win a crappy secondary Cup just because it’s a Cup instead of having your eyes on the top prize. That is not a winning mentality in the slightest.

 

Losing 2 other finals under Klopp didn't help Liverpool win the CL final. They just failed again.
That's more likely to be damaging.

Ferguson would never have considered 2nd an achievement, ever.

True he would have said use the pain of losing to drive you forward so you never experience it again, but he'd never encourage any player to feel good about being 2nd or consider it a good season if they won nothing else.

Losing makes you a loser

 

Why did Arsenal lose so many good players in the years after their last PL title?

Because finishing Top 4 relentlessly was not enough to keep those players happy.
Fabregas, Nasri, van Persie wanted to win. To feel what it was like to lift a trophy & be a winner.
So they jumped to other clubs, and they became winners.

Arsenal just kept on acting like Top 4 was an achievement, and so carried on for years creating a team of mentally weak players who couldn't get it done.

Spurs have the Arsenal mentality now, and if they're not careful the same will happen to that team. Kane & Alli & Eriksen will want to go somewhere they can actually win something.

And if the mentality of some fans is anything to go by, same could happen to Liverpool & United

 

How does winning a tournament you have to lose in order to get into foster a winning mentally, but winning your way to the final if the most prestigious tournament doesn't?

 

Who said anything about feeling good about losing? But you choose the opportunity to win or fail the more important Cup everytime.

Thinking winning the Europa League - let’s be clear here - a tournament for teams who finish 5th and below, and for the teams who finish 3rd in the group of the CL - is some kind of success story, is not a winning mentality. It’s a secondary cup for teams that aren’t good enough to compete in the CL, end of story.

 

Winning the EL is exactly the same as getting Top 4, because you get the same thing for it.
Why isn't Top 4 equivalent + the addition of having a winners medal & a trophy not therefore better than being 2nd or 3rd and having nothing?
Which do you think the players would be happier with?

Because you won that tournament, which feels better than losing the other & gives you something to be proud of.

It's a platform for progress.
Missed out on CL this season, so win the EL & get a trophy & then push on next season to try & do better in the more elite competition.
The consolation is at least you're a winner of something. Which is better than being a loser.

Burnley would take it if it means there's a chance they can play in the CL the next season + get a trophy.

 

Have we reached peak #richielogic or have we always been there?

 

Would Burnley take relegation and a Europa league win?

 

Things are also different now because the reward for EL win is greater than it used to be.
Winning it as the UEFA Cup was just a consolation prize for the European loser league. Not worth the effort & potential league failure.

In some ways it's easier now to get CL Qualification winning EL than it is going through a 38 game season trying to compete with 5 other teams for 4 places.

 

Playing in the CL would be a great achievement for the club.
Make them a lot of revenue & TV exposure despite playing in the Championship.

I'd take that as a lower league player.
It's a chance I might never get again

 

So you place a great of value on tv time and money?

But I dare not give credit to enjoyable football?

Although your money thing is nonsense. At this point PL money outstrips CL money.