The Ben Skywalker Appreciation Party

You also have to realize that it's an even GREATER compliment coming from such a huge Vader fanboy as myself, since it means I'm conceding enough to equate young Ben with the guy who brutally beat down my all-time favorite villain in such a one-sided display.

 

no offense, but vader was holding back against luke. vader did not even throw things at luke with the force in rotj. that was effective in esb. no vader was starting to feel love for his son, and held back.

 

Once Luke went berserk, it wasn't that Vader was holding back- it was that he simply couldn't put up any defense that Luke couldn't power his way through. Luke flat-out overpowered Vader.

 

I'd say that both sound pretty reasonable. I tend toward dewback's theory on this one though.

 

I find it somewhat disturbing you feel the need to elevate Luke's lowest point in the saga to some grand moment of badassery.

Can't we just agree the fight doesn't matter and get back to Awesome Ben?

 

well i tend to over promote luke too CMshake. but see the threads under the "Eu Community" title are not always on topic. you can go way off topic here and that is kosher, but on the "literature" area it is very much enforced if you go off topic.

 

We could even discuss the nature of "on topic" itself.

 

To be fair, until a year ago or so I was convinced Vader HAD to be throwing the fight, cause there was no WAY he'd have lost to Luke. I'm not just a Luke fanboy, remember- Luke may be my favorite SW character, but Darth Vader is my all-time favorite villain, and my fifth favorite SW character overall. I have almost as much stake in spinning this as a Vader apologist as I do as a Luke fan.

It's just that it suddenly struck me that it didn't MATTER if Vader was holding back to that point. He was clearly trying to avoid Bersekk!Luke's onslaught, but nothing he could throw up could defend against it. The entire duel aboard the second Death Star is a beautiful mirror of the duel between Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Dooku aboard the Invisible Hand, there are just so many details similar, and the idea there was that Anakin clearly overpowered his opponent.

In BOTH cases it was due to drawing on the dark side, I won't hide that. The thing is, I can't help but feel the ROTS duel mirroring the ROTJ one so closely CAN'T be just coincidence. The scenery, the relationships between the players- heck, you've even got Palpy on a throne in both of them. The mirroring is too close for that not to have been the intent: Skywalker fights Sith Lord that took his right hand. Repays in kind by drawing on the DS. Palpatine on throne goads him into striking the final blow.

Then there's the difference- Anakin gave in to the pressure, while Luke resists and regains his Jedi calm at the last second. The mirroring is so great here because despite both victories being because the Skywalker in question was drawing on the dark side... LUKE PULLED BACK. He literally had Vader where he couldn't resist, and Luke decided NOT to give that final blow, whereas his father DIDN'T. Anakin went ahead, whereas Luke pulled back. The fact that both of them were using the dark side to win is part of what makes it so obvious what the difference between Luke and Anakin is.

It's not so much that I want to blow it up into some moment of badassery, but simply that the mirroring of those two duels is so strong I'm convinced that's what Lucas was going for there. The overpowering was legitimate, albeit fueled by the dark side. It's meant as a similar situation to show how Anakin and Luke differ as people. At the most pivotal choice in their lives, Anakin plunges headlong into the dark side and proves to Palpatine he's ripe for being taken as an apprentice, while Luke steps back from the abyss and remains a Jedi. I LOVE that duality, Luke as Anakin 2.0 and all that.

Believe me, I'd be HAPPY if I could still believe the Vader apologist point of view, because I'm such a huge Vader fan. Luke would still have surpassed Vader by Dark Empire anyways, what with being able to take down Palpatine and all... it's just that I just simply can't see it that way any more. The duality in Luke's and Anakin's stories in the third films of their trilogies is just too perfect to NOT feel it was intentional.

But, yes, having set the record straight, I'm good to discuss Ben again. Anyone else find that bit at the end of Outcast where Ben's singing in a chipmunk voice (and Luke struggles valiantly to retain his Jedi calm) freaking hilarious? Maybe it's just because I first got to do Outcast via the audiobook, and hearing the chipmunk voice singing just utterly sold me. Had to rewind it and listen to it about a dozen times, and couldn't stop laughing.

 

I didn't get the audiobook version, but yes I LOVED it!

 

Well in that case, I think dewback_rancher is correct on the fight once Luke goes into his negative emotion (if not dark side) fueled rage he dominated the fight. Again, though, I think it is hardly a crowning achievement for Luke though.

Edit: You kinda beat me to the punch in responding.(Probably a good idea for me to hit refresh before posting)

I was actually thinking of this again when I was posting. I think the fights themselves are irrelevant to the situation. What really mattered was the decision point when they had to choose and act.

That aside, I just don't think it is accurate to measure Luke's ability while he is in a Dark side rage, this might just be a situation to agree to disagree though.

I think it was just the audio book.

 

What was the crowning achievement is that he was SO close to losing himself to the dark side, and unlike his father, LUKE STEPPED BACK. He had all that power at his control for a few brief moments... and he turned his back on it because that power came at too steep a cost.

THAT is the crowning achievement. I just like to point out the Vader loss because it shows you just how tempting it was to him then, it helps define exactly why he would have to pause to consider while contemplating his hand and Vader's instead of instantly snapping back. The dark side allowed him to completely reverse his and Vader's roles from their last duel, but it wasn't RIGHT to use that power. So Luke threw down his lightsaber and defied the Emperor, choosing to remain a Jedi even if it cost him his life.

He drags himself back from the abyss, and that is partly what shows Vader that it CAN be done. Vader saw with his own eyes that it COULD be done, and that was part of the whole tapestry of events that led to Vader being no more, and Anakin coming back.

All because Luke acted as a moral example to his father and turned away from the dark side.

And THAT is why that moment is freaking awesome. Not because he beat Vader (though that helps give depth to the decision, showing Luke what can be accomplished if he were to turn), but because he chose to forsake that great power and remain a Jedi. And showed Anakin the path to redemption.


Anyways, glad to see you too enjoyed that part. My recommendation? Check the audiobook out of the library, if only for that part alone. It makes it about three times funnier, trust me.

 

Exactly

Here's a blatantly unnecessary question, how good of a pilot do you think Ben would make?
(I made some pretty serious additions my to post above this one)

 

Considering Ben's already carried on the family tradition of learning ludicrously fast, I fully expect him to carry on the family tradition of being an insanely-good pilot as well.

 

I hope Ben doesn't as bad of a love life as Luke did

 

Well, his only current prospect is a sith girl. Looks like he might have a worse love life.

 

I might be stretching it a bit, but Ben seem to be following the Jacen Solo romance model. In Allies alone we get awkwardness (which is expected anyway), terrible jokes, and violence against the intended female's family.

 

at least we know Ben doesn't grow old and lonely

 

Or DO we? Perhaps there's a Luuuuuuuke Skywalker out there who fathers Kol's ancestor.... or maybe a Beeeeeeeen Skywalker. It's so hard to say....

 

Something just went over my head. Anyone care to tell me what it was?

 

Cloning joke. Over in the TFU-related boards, we're joking about the early Zahn usage of doubling the vowels in a character's name for their clone (Jorus C'baoth to Joruus C'baoth, Luke Skywalker to Luuke Skywalker, for example), by calling the various Starkiller clones Staaaaaaarkiller.

So, I'm saying for all we know either Luke could have another clone running around somewhere, or Ben could have one, or BOTH could, and one of said clones are the ancestors of Kol, Nat, and Cade. Ergo, Ben could STILL die lonely.

Given that they let TFU and TFU2 be canon, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as something they wouldn't pull.

 

That's pretty funny. I didn't even notice the vowel doubling in Joruus name.

 

yeah,I didn't think about cloning, I guess we'll have to wait until the expanded universe writers write about it, which is probably going to be years from now

 

i really like Ben, i think he is such a good character that he might be the most worth while to read in the universe. Vestara is top three

 

Hey folks, haven't been on this particular board in a while, just wanted to say Ben is great so far in the first couple of hundred pages of Vortex. I'm happy he and Vestara are really starting to test their relationship and it's not just magically going to go well, although sometimes it seems a little too nicey nice between a Jedi and Sith. Anyway so far so good. His relationship with Luke is great IMO. Since I lost Jacen as my fav Skywalker-Solo kid, Ben is stepping up nicley.