The Bible gets an edit....

I have to agree with Snowdog on his points about religion, faith, and the refusal to deal with questions. Someone's willingness to answer questions about his beliefs is my litmus test for his sincerity. If he suggests I shouldn't be asking questions, I don't deal with him anymore.

On the political thing, I just want to clarify - I find ALL governments and all parties I know of equally useless, ridiculous, hypocritical and self-interested (if that's a word). The only reason I was saying I understood why Republicans got named first (aside from TPM's leanings) was the fact that the Republicans have so blatantly allied themselves with religion, which is the topic of discussion in here. Snowdog is right - Democrats don't care about your health care or whatever they're spouting off at the moment, either. But health care isn't the topic.

Hey, Cydonia, is there a topic for people who think Congress should be lined up and shot for passing themselves a hefty raise while (1) they have more pressing stuff to be dealing with and (2) more people are out of work and really suffering in this country than have been in at least a decade or two? That could be a nice health, non-partisan debate.... no, it couldn't. It could if it were just you and me, pal, but I give it three posts before someone finds a way to blame The Other Party for the whole thing.

And we wonder why the church can't have just one denomination.

 

It's like I said in an earlier post somewhere... North Dakotans constantly vote Republican because, apparently, there are enough idiots amongst the conservative Christian community who really believe that rich Republican industrial-baron presidents give a flying crap about some guy and his wheat farm.

Why do they believe this? Because Republicans, like Democrats, pretend to give a damn about the social issues of the "little man." As TreeCave said, the Republicans do it by pretending to be aligned with the values of Southern Baptists... or whatever other ultra-conservative Christian denomination they can get enough votes from.

People think, "Oh, they go to the same church and they believe just as I do that abortion is evil, abstinence is key, music is the devil's creation (except when it's used by the clergy to make money, right?), and that homosexuals, liberals and one democrat who couldn't keep his pants on are the reason this country's going to hell... then I guess Republicans MUST care about me and my cabbage farm!"

... despite all the gobs of money politicians get from big business? Yeah... sure, whatever.

... as if Republicans and preachers are any better at keeping their pants on than Bill Clinton. They just might be better at not getting caught... and when they do get caught, like Jimmy Swaggart (remember him? The preacher who used to chastise his cousin Jerry Lee Lewis for singing "the Devil's music"? How ironic...), those preachers and politicians aren't sorry for what they did... they're sorry they got caught.

Give me a flippin' break! Republicans wipe their butts with our values while eating Foie Gras with the chairman of the NRA, the president of Standard Oil (and probably the Grand Dragon of the KKK, too) at a $300 a plate restaurant on the country's dime. These are people who have no values... Iran-Contra ring a bell, anybody? Just because Reagan couldn't remember it ten minutes later doesn't mean he was insane at the very moment he decided to endorse the exchange of arms for hostages... and now we're paying for it. Bush, Sr. quadrupled the national debt... Bush, Jr's idiotic approach to foreign relations and domestic security will probably spark a nuclear war (who knows, maybe it's what those warmonger fogey pals of his have been dreaming about)... plunging hundreds of millions of dollars into the military-industrial complex, backing out of the ABM treaty, and giving airlines a new excuse to jack ticket prices... instead of letting the dead weight of the airline industry rebalance itself through natural competition... nevermind the fact that, despite all the new technology and weapons we will have, at the cost of the next five generations' disposable incomes, still couldn't have stopped four men carrying nothing more than boxcutters. The religious zealots think they're being done a favor because Bush appears to be turning this country into the homogenous theocracy the fundamentalists have wet dreams about. In reality, he's turning our country into the world's most powerful monarchy... which Republicans, Democrats [and probably Hitler] have all had wet dreams about.

All it took the other day was the courage of a few people who were tired of taking crap from religious extremists... and they prevented another plane from falling out of the sky. It didn't take billions of dollars and thousands of troops.

How about we stop taking crap from our own religious and political extremists who are trying to turn our own nation into a Taliban-style government?

 

"BTW, there's a harry potter book burning at Christ Community Church in New Mexico this sunday. Bring the whole family."
LOL! And people say Flanders is a stereotype! So the Simpsons is legitimate social commentary after all!

 

Snowdog, many good points again. However, you said Bush Sr. quadrupled the national debt? Where did you hear that? I know this is off-topic, but I'd never heard that before. Then again, I still have trouble telling the difference between the debt and the deficit.

Here's a point that is, more or less, on topic: does religion discourage independent thought and truth-seeking? My answer is that TRUE religion does not - it encourages people to have spiritual experiences on their own. But like any other institution, most of what goes on in the name of "religion" is not at all what it's supposed to be, and that's where I think the discouraging of independent thought comes in.

 

Argh. (tries to keep two seperate topics he likes seperate)

As far as the book burning, it was pretty funny. I was driving home from work yesterday, and it was a pastor from NM on a l.a. talk radio station. So bring your harry potter books, and (get this) pantera cds(?) (that's what he said) and other "pornography".

He made some good distinctions between what is witchcraft for the kiddies. Wizard of Oz passes, because the wicked witch is the villain, and gets killed. When asked about the Good Witch of the North, he said, "well, she's more of a fairy. There's a difference between pure fantasy and witchcraft."

 

There's a difference between pure fantasy and witchcraft

Yes, because we all know that events which happen in the Harry Potter books are entirely plausible and realistic. [rolleyes.gif]

 

When asked about the Good Witch of the North, he said, "well, she's more of a fairy. There's a difference between pure fantasy and witchcraft."

I thought fairies represented ANOTHER lifestyle the Church found sinful and reprehensible.

 

"She's more of a Fairy"

Oh that one made my day. Thanks. Talk about hypocritical. What The Bible says is that Witchcraft is wrong. But it never says what is Witchcraft. Our beloved ancestors had the nasty habit of labeling every single thing that didn't fit into there worldly view as witchcraft. So much to the point we do not know anymore what it was the Bible was trying to warn us about anymore.

 

Yeah but they won't deride fairies, TreeCave, considering the behavior of some preachers who are known for... *ahem*... certain... appetites.

 

That's just wrong. LOL!
Hey, what's wrong with the Little People? Is it because they're Irish? Eh, is that it, lad?
Good point about discouraging questioning and "why?" I'm not trying to bash Christianity here, but the story of the Garden of Eden sounds suspicious from this point of view- "See, peasants, if you try to learn too much or improve yourselves and your position in society, it's evil, it's Satan's work, and you'll go to hell."
This of course is just another type of what we went over earlier- many religions have been corrupted and perverted by the upper classes, over the years, in order to justify and uphold the status quo. One of the ways in which this was done was the discouraging of questions and particularly asking "why?"
"Always Question Authority."
-Timothy Leary

Ooh, fun, politics. Did anyone else notice, also, that the Republicans are not consistent in their views on birth control and capital punishment? They say they're "pro-life" because they're antichoice, but if they're really "pro-life," shouldn't they be against the death penalty? Actually, according to the Republicans' reasoning, the Democrats are consistent in their views- as the GOP would see it, the Democrats are consistently "pro-death." The Catholic church's position at least makes sense in this regard- they do not support the death penalty.

Well, you can't always keep religion separate from politics- but I do wish people would consider their religion's true teachings, if they decide to mix the two.
Keeping it separate from government, on the other hand, while possible, is not probable in an Amerika controlled by a corporate-reactionary alliance.

 

This thread is great. I'm serious... I may drop by with some points later.

 

::scowls:: This thread has degenerated into a worthless Republican bashing free for all. This is disgusting.

 

Yes, quite a change from your liberal bashing.

 

I'm a republican, i'm still here. I just won't get into it in a bible thread.

 

You have to realize that to him cydonia anyone who doesn't agree with his literal interpretation of the bible is a liberal.

So, how does it feel to be a liberal?

 

New, refreshing. Inviting if you will.

I don't love the christian right, everyone knows that. But you can't lump a whole party into that camp, otherwise you wouldn't have me.

 

I realize that. I mean the Pope guy. Jeez, you have to ruin my stereotypes, eh?

 

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

This just makes me think about my office buddy, jesus man. When he was talking about Bush, he said we have the right man in the white house. I said, well that's at least one thing we can agree on, i like W. And he was like, "But he's a christian! I thought you hated christians! You'd be surprised to know what he cares about most in life." And i'm thinking, geez i know he's a christian. Give it a rest.

 

W is on a mission from Jesus. At least that's what he's told his close friends. He sounds a lot like your buddy at work. W believes in Armageddon as well. Just the guy you want with his finger on the button.

Other than that I love the guy!

 

Well, he can't legislate a belief in armageddon. (cydonia exits political discussion.)

 

Well, he can't legislate a belief in armageddon. (cydonia exits political discussion.)

You are a wiser man than me. Never argue politics(or religion) with friends.

Or was it monkeys? Oh well, same thing really.

 

Amen.

 

You know, some posters are getting close to the line of Republican bashing. I'm no fan of Republicans, but let's face a few facts here.

Folks, it's not that the Republican party is corrupt and the Democratic party is ethical. They are both for sale to the highest bidder. The only reason Republicans should be brought up here is that this is a religious discussion, and they are the party Christian fringe freaks (mainly the Christian Coalition) have chosen to infuse huge amounts of cash in the quaint practice of "lobbying", which is known as "bribery" in every other civilized country. If the Christian Coalition poured as much money into the Democrat party, I believe it would turn pro-life overnight just like the Republicans did in 1979. Snowdog is right - you're a fool to think anyone in a capitalist government is there to look out for your interests, unless your interest coincide with those of some WAY rich people who can afford to buy legislation via lobbying.

When it comes to US politics, the Christian Coalition is just one more special interest group, like the AMA, unions, PETA and everybody else that lobbies Congress for what they want. Notice I just included some groups that lobby Democrats, because it's all equally disgusting to me.

I have a relative - a former minister - who works for a TX-based Christian-oriented company that lobbies Republican senators to pass legislation they think represents Christian beliefs. This company makes a scandalous amount of money doing this by convincing small business owners they're lobbying for small business interests (which constitutes maybe 10% of their lobbying) and getting those people to buy "subscriptions" to see how the vote turns out. It's ludicrous - they simply stir up the business owner's emotions (trust me, I helped this relative fine-tune his pitch, and was paid well to do so), and the fool fails to see he's paying for nothing, since you can easily find out how your senator voted by going online or whatever.

Perhaps it would be better to discuss the unholy alliance of politics and religion in GENERAL terms, rather than naming names or parties.

 

I like talking about my religion. It helps me work out my thoughts sometimes. I do not like talking politics. Yuck.. nasty business. Money is the only religion that takes priorities in Politics. Oh well that really isn't the topic.

 

Hey, I don't like Demohacks any more than the Grand Old Putsch. That thing about "prodeath" was dig at them, ya know? I was just pointing out some religiously based inconsistencies and stuff.
As for legislating a belief in Armageddon, no, but... Interesting, that means he really is living up to Reagan's legacy. Reagan believed that Armageddon was going to be a nuclear confrontation between the US and USSR at the biblically named site near Mount Megiddo, possibly sparked in some way by Arab-Israeli conflict. Of course, he also joked into a live mike that he had just ordered nuclear strikes on the Soviet Union, but that's another story.
Anyway, enough. Back on-topic.