The Bible Thread: Help Fight Redundancy

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Apr 10, 2002.

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  1. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    You know the drill - same deal as with the Jesus thread. We have too many threads about the same thing here and the Bible is one of those topics that spawns many threads.

    Got questions on the Bible? Ask them.
    Care to debate OT vs NT? Go ahead!
    Is the Bible a valid source for historians? Go at it!

    ;)
  2. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Thank you.

    Much appreciated :). Hopefully will cut down on the redundant threads.
  3. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Besides the name of Jesus and the location he supposedly lived in, what are the fundamental differences between ancient pagan myths and the story of Jesus? Are these differences significant or insignificant?
  4. Kitt327 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 4
    I tend to see similarities to the story of Jesus life everywhere, in ancient mythology, in modern day hollywood movies, in ancient history, modern history, even in nature. Personally, I find the repeated cycle of death followed by rebirth to be very significant. There is something fundamentally true about it.

    Talking about the bible ... what would everyone say is your favourite part/book? Personally, I like Acts. That part we're they're lost at sea and end up shipwrecked reminds me of an action/adventure novel :p
  5. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Left with only his vivid fantasy life, Alex studiously peruses and reads the Bible in the prison library, imagining the more lurid and violent parts of the Old and New Testaments. The chaplain, the moral voice of the film, misinterprets his sincerity and religiosity:


    Alex (voice-over): It was my rabbit to help the prison charlie with the Sunday service. He was a bolshy great burly bastard, but he was very fond of myself, me being very young, and also now very interested in the big book.
    Alex brutally fantasizes about being a Roman guard at the Crucifixion, lashing out and shouting to Jesus in an American accent - like in a bad Hollywood movie: "Move on there!" All that Alex has left to feed his violent and sexual personality are his fantasies of being an Old Testament warrior in battle, and surrounded by half-naked, bare-breasted handmaidens (Jan Adair, Vivienne Chandler, Prudence Drage):


    Alex (voice-over): I read all about the scourging and the crowning with thorns and I could viddy myself helping in and even taking charge of the tolchocking and the nailing in, being dressed in the height of Roman fashion. I didn't so much like the latter part of the book, which is more like all preachy talking than fighting and the old in-out. I liked the parts where these old yahoodies tolchock each other and then drink their Hebrew vino, and getting onto the bed with their wives' handmaidens. That kept me going.
  6. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Was there a point to that?
  7. jinky32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2002
    star 2
    Jesus N.T life is made up from a whole load of other mythological sources. This was in order to make the religion succeed amongst Romans who demand that religion has a certain history to it.
    An interesting point is that the term `Messiah' is never used in the O.T to refer to an eschatological redeemer. The term only becomes used in this manner when Xians are struggling to find a way to define jesus. It does of course, also fit him into a long history (that of Judaism or rather `Judaisms')
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I don't know about the Roman part. It didn't seem to satisfy them very much. Christians weren't too popular for awhile.
  9. jinky32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2002
    star 2
    Oh yeah, but it only took them c.326 years to get used to it!
    The Romans liked things with a long history, that's why they generally all religions in colonised areas where allowed to remain, so long as they paid tribute.
    Christianity tried to tap into myth and Judaism in order to give it some `clout' (for want of a better word!)
  10. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    just the fact i enjoy a clockwork orange
  11. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
  12. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Here's a little thing I wrote up about the "End-times" in another thread...but was told to put it here...


    There seems to be a lot of paranoia around the Apocalypse, with terrorism, the war in Israel,the upcoming planetary conjuction(5-5-2002), natural disasters and those "mark of the beast" microchips.
    Then again, such "End-times" paranoia has been going on ever since the dawn of Christianity, and even before then. Plus the main center of Christian prophecy, "Revelation" is probably the vaguest chapter in the bible--It has many symbols that don't really make a lot of sense in our modern world...although some basic concepts can be grasped. Apparentally, there will be a great seven-year tribulation in which Earth will be totally ravaged by meteorites, wars(probably nuclear), tsunamis, massive earthquakes, and so on. Before or after this event, the true Christians will apparentally be "raptured"-dissiapearing entirely and being summoned to heaven. During the tribulation, those "Left Behind" will either repent or follow the "Anti-christ", a man who claims to be the "real" messiah but is actually a minion of Satan. Eventually, on "Judgement Day" Jesus will come again, and set his angels against the forces of the anti-christ and Satan, vanquishing them for goo, as well as those evil ones. Then God will apparentally 'reboot' the Earth and repopulate it with those who are righteous, including those who were 'raptured' or died earlier in Christ. Then Jesus will rule both Earth and Heaven forever....

    Anyway, as for signs....

    Anti-Christ:

    The Anti-Christ is apparentally an anti-Christian leader who takes over the world and forces them to worship him. He apparentally performs miracles and heals from a miracolous injury. We've had many so-called anti-christs who turned out to be none other than wackos, and who are mostly dead at this moment...as for the true Anti-Christ, some have suggested that the anti-christ will be a Pope; others suggest he will be a president. Certainly it's not John Paul; JP is not long for this world. One non-biblical Catholic prophecy does state that there are only two popes left before the end times. Time will tell. Certainly the anti-christ is not Bin Laden; Laden certainly has no government power.

    Babylon:
    Revelation 17:18, Before the judgements begin the city is called "...that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
    Revelation 18:7-8, "...she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.' Therefore her plagues will come in one day."
    Revelation 18:10, After the city is destroyed the kings of the earth cry out, "Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come."
    Revelation 18:15-17, The merchants of this city, who were "the great men of the earth," cry out: "...'Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.' "
    Revelation 18:18-19, And all the shipmasters cry out as well, "... What is like this great city? ...Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate."
    Jeremiah 50:31-32, "Behold, I am against you, O most haughty one!" says the Lord God of hosts; "For your day has come, The time that I will punish you. The most proud shall stumble and fall..."
    Jeremiah 51:7-8, "Babylon was a golden cup in the Lord's hand, That made all the earth drunk. The nations drank her wine; Therefore the nations are deranged. Babylon has suddenly fallen and been destroyed. Wail for her! Take balm for her pain..."

    Apparentally a "Great City" which fits into the End Times. Some have said that this is New York, and the "Whore of Babylon" is the Statue Of Liberty. However, this could easily stand for the current Babylon, Baghdad. Now could the attacks on New York stand for the attacks on Babylon in Revelation? Possibly. Or could it stand for an attack on something else? Then again, Bab
  13. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Earthquakes in Various Places ... Plus the 'various places' seem confined mostly to California(Not settled until before the Civil War), Japan, Afghanistan and Turkey.

    And South America, and the Phillipines, and Washington DC (there was a mild earthquake centered in Manassas, VA a few months ago), and Washington State, and Taiwan, and many other parts of the world. Not all earthquakes are the ones that cause major tragedies or happen during major events. Some are only mentioned for a day or so in the news and then life moves on.

    Kimball Kinnison
  14. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Still, as I said, many of these quakes have probably happened for years, but either (A) were not as devastating due to minimal construction or were (B)not noticed because these areas were not settled at the time.
  15. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Anyway, regarding Jesus's historical precedent, while Jesus's story does bear some resemblances to the Buddha, Horus/Osiris and Krishna myths, it stands more on it's own IMO.
    It's important to consider what the NT is...while the OT seems to be rules God dictated to the Isrealites, the NT is composed more of eyewitness accounts(The Gospels, apparentally), and also the letters of Paul. I think the mistake many literalists make in considering Paul's letters is that they take them to be words of god like in the OT, but a great deal of what Paul said was part of his opinions(At this point the Jews did not like the Hellinization-"Alexandarian Greek", that is-influences on their society, hence Paul's controversial attitudes towards Women and Homosexuals). Now although Jesus-through a vision-did apparentally appoint Paul to be his messanger, he did not directly dictate things to Paul as God did in the OT, and gospels in the NT.
    It is possible some mythological influence seeped into the bible-I believe the stories are mostly true, but there is a possibility that there was a some minor exagerration and embellishment. Take Noah's ark for example-it would have been extremely difficult for Noah to make a boat to contain *every* single creature on Earth, including multiple species. Unless of course, the creatures somehow evolved into seperate species *after* the flood somehow.
    Now as for the bible pinpointing real locations and events, we have to remember things like this happen in some other stories...Troy, Crete, The Nile, Olympus etc. are all real places where apparentally fantastic events happened.
    Besides, things were written for the audience of the time-I don't think people at the time would have understood physics or evolution. I mean, simply because the bible does not mention a certain something, does not mean it does not exist. Evolution doesn't rule out the creation story either, when you really think about it.
    Not to discredit the bible, but certain things in it were probably not intended to be taken at face value. The *basic* message-faith in God and living a moral life-is what we should adhere to. Arguing about the exact meaning of the passages is something God probably does not want us to do.

  16. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    But almost all the miracles Jesus performed had been done before hand in other myths. I guess he made the myths come true?
  17. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    What other myths had healing, feeding of five thousand, and walking on water? I know ressurection occured in other myths...
  18. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Anyway, we won't know the truth until we either die or the Rapture/apocalypse hits. But in case of an afterlife, I choose to play it safe by believing, and living a life of moderation, although I realize you can't be a perfect Christian(Who is, honestly?).
    Also, an add-on to the Apocalypse post...Jesus said we would not know the exact date or time of the Apocalypse-that NO MAN would know. So it'll probably come when we least expect it. At this moment, way too many people are expecting it....
  19. Fat_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2001
    star 4
    Typical non-Christian statement on Jesus:

    "His entire life and all his miracles are pieced together from ancient myths."

    I've heard this SO much, yet no one cares to name these myths.....why? Perhaps it is just a rumor that people use without even researching it.

    One time I posted - "What other religion has a Creator who loves his creation so much that he sends his own son to die for them so they might be redeemed?" . My response was something like "If you looked at ancient myths, you'd see that Jesus' story wasn't that uncommon."

    Yet again, a failure to mention the myth(s)' name.

    Can someone tell me what these myths are called.....if they exist, that is.
  20. Melyanna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2001
    star 4
    I second Fat_Fett's request for evidence.
  21. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    The only Christian prophecy is that Jesus will return in some form or another. Don't make it so complicated people. :p
  22. Melyanna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2001
    star 4
    Vaderbait: You're correct in that the only Christian prophecy not yet fulfilled is that Christ will come again, but the book of Revelation is full of prophecies that have already been fulfilled. Most scholars today say that these prophecies were fulfilled by either the destruction of Jerusalem or the downfall of Rome.

    Other than that, we know that some of the Christians in the first century were given the gift of prophecy - in fact, Paul made it clear in I Corinthians that prophecy was to be the most desired spiritual gift.
  23. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "Can someone tell me what these myths are called.....if they exist, that is."


    Mithras, Apollonius(sp?).
  24. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    A great way to learn about myths is to actually study them, and not rely on what your church tells you. I'm into books. Try this one on for size:

    jesusmysteries

    There's no excuse for ignorance. Don't depend on other people to teach you about history. I grew up in a fundamentalist christian culture, believe me no one ever told me about the myths that Jesus practically copies. I had to find out for myself.

    Actually, take the two names Saint Of Killers mentioned, copy and paste them into Google or Yahoo, and start reading. The truth is out there. You just have to be willing to do some reading and questioning.

    Sorry if that sounded mean. Nothing personal. It's the demanding non believers prove they are wrong thing i have a problem with.
  25. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Other than that, we know that some of the Christians in the first century were given the gift of prophecy -

    you're right, that has been verified. Why,it's in the bible! Clearly we know it, because it's true! Why? Because it's in the bible. Case Closed! ;)



    ?
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