The Bible Thread: Help Fight Redundancy

Doesn't mount Sinai, in a semetic term, mean "Mountain of Sin?"

 

To be honest, I don't know but I see your logic in it.

 

Sinai in Hebrew means "thorny".

 

I've been reading many of the suppossed prophecies apparentally mentioning Jesus's reign, but glancing at many they appear to be taken *dramatically* out of context. Most of the accounts relating to Christ are taken from David's songs, not prophecy; and many of the other passages, when you look at them in context, relate to Israel, and not any messiah. Also, the prophecy about Bethelem refers to the *clan* of Bethelem, not the town. Also the passage "Behold, a virgin with child" actually states "Behold, a *fair woman* is with Child in the original Hebrew.
As for the passage apparentally prophecising John The Baptist, the "prophecy" actually refers to Malachi himself, who in Hebrew is called "My messanger"!

 

I've been reading many of the suppossed prophecies apparentally mentioning Jesus's reign, but glancing at many they appear to be taken *dramatically* out of context.

I really think that it's more due to people not fully understanding the original context, rather than the prophecies being taken out of context.


Most of the accounts relating to Christ are taken from David's songs, not prophecy;

In Isaiah 11:1, we are told that that the Messiah will be a shoot of Jesse. Jesse was David's father, so the Messiah was seen to be another David. Since he's another David, it makes sense that some of his life was to parallel the original David. For instance, when Jesus was on the cross he called out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" This was a quote from one of David's Psalms (Psalm 22). Consider the similarities between this psalm and Christ's death:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the Lord ;
let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me. (Apparently, during crucifixion, it was very common for the victim's heart to burst just before death)

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.


and many of the other passages, when you look at them in context, relate to Israel, and not any messiah.

The Messiah was to be the personification of Israel. Israel was God's chosen vessel through which he was to bring blessing into the world. That was what the Messiah was to do also. There are many parallels between the life of Jesus and the life of Israel as a nation.


Also, the prophecy about Bethelem refers to the *clan* of Bethelem, not the town.

This makes more sense if you read Micah as a whole. God is speaking to the town of Bethlehem, which is personified in the prophecy as King David (Bethlehem was his town). He calls the town the least among all the clans; David was called the least of all his brothers.


Also the passage "Behold, a virgin with child" actually states "Behold, a *fair woman* is with Child in the original Hebrew.

The Hebrew uses the word "almah" which means young woman. More precisely it means young, unmarried woman. Since girls married very early (usually thirteen), umarried girls would be virgins anyway. So virginity is certainly implied.


As for the passage apparentally prophecising John The Baptist, the "prophecy" actually refers to Malachi himself, who in Hebrew is called "My messanger"!

Malachi prophecies about John as another Elijah, not another Malachi (unless I'm misunderstanding the passage you're talking about).

I hope all the explainations make sense.

 

I've come across some images from various pagan religions predating Christianity, which seem to have similar symbolism:


[image=http://www.truthbeknown.com/images/krishnacrucified.jpg]

[image=http://www.truthbeknown.com/images/isis.jpg]

[image=http://www.truthbeknown.com/images/orpheus2.jpg]

[image=http://www.truthbeknown.com/images/jesusgraffito.jpg]

 

Fiction=Sin?



"Do not love the world or the things of the world. For they are of man, and not of God"-St.Paul

"Keep yourself from silly myths"-St. Paul

"They were turned on by myths"-Peter

"We do not follow myths"-Peter


---Another problem is the gospel's records. How could the gospel writers know what Mary or Pilate were saying or thinking, if they were not witnesses to this part of Christ's life? Although I suppose Mary could've told the Apostles tales of Jesus's early days...

 

The problem Chris, is that you sometimes have a string of points in your posts. When I or someone else takes the time to answer them, you simply move onto something else without passing comment.

I'm interested in whether or not you agree with my answers to your comments about prophecies. Please let me know.

With regard to the pictures you posted - the one of a mother and her baby is rather similar to ancient Christian artwork, but that's nothing to do with the biblical accounts. As far as the crucifixion ones go, crcifixion was a Roman way of execution, so I doubt very much that the one of Krishna being crucified was genuine.

The quotes about "myths" make more sense if you read from a translation other than the King James. Us Star Wars fans are safe, don't worry.

 

Here's some of the claims of Athiests regarding the 'uniqueness' of Christ:


Jesus (Man + Myth = Christianity)
Did the early Christians borrow from other pagan mythology to help create the Biblical Christ figure? Jesus is NOT the only religious figure to be born of a virgin and to rise from the dead. Draw whatever conclusion you want but the similarities cannot be denied.

Buddha

Although most people think of Buddha as being one person who lived around 500 B.C.E., the character commonly portrayed as Buddha can also be demonstrated to be a compilation of godmen, legends and sayings of various holy men both preceding and succeeding the period attributed to the Buddha.

The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:

Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."

He was of royal descent.

He crushed a serpent's head.

He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.

He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."

He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.

He was transfigured on a mount.

Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.

He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven."

Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd", the "Carpenter", the "Infinite and Everlasting."

He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World."



Horus of Egypt

The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one"). The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares the following in common with Jesus:

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was years old.

Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."

He had 12 disciples.

He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.

He walked on water.

Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.

He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.

He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys").

Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."

Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.

In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child" - and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced. Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to water to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier pagan mystery religions.



Mithra, Sungod of Persia more

The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years. According to Wheless, the cult of Mithra was, shortly before the Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times." Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.

He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

He had 12 companions or disciples.

He performed miracles.

He was buried in a tomb.

After three days he rose again.

His resurrection was celebrated every year.

Mithra was called "t

 

Alright. I have a question. It is alleged in the Gospels that Judas was paid "thirty pieces of silver"--in fulfilment of a prophecy in the Old Testament. The trouble is, pieces of silver had gone out of circulation well before Jesus' time. Is this not an instance where the New Testament writers have clearly manufactured events to fit OT predictions?

 

""Keep yourself from silly myths"-St. Paul

"They were turned on by myths"-Peter

"We do not follow myths"-Peter "

Irony tastes like chicken. Mmmm...chicken.

 

Darkside, where did you find that info? Yes, Judas was payed silver, but I don't think it mentions a particular coin or mint, just thirty pieces.

 

The alleged prophecy regarding Judas apparentally has one of the prophets paying someone(An Angel or something)..it doesn't elude to a future event, however.

 

Here's an interesting site which documents similarities between Judaism, Christianity, and other religions and philosophies, along with archaeological examinations:

www.bibleorigins.net

 

Doing more research, it looks like Jesus actually fits the prophecy of being an ENEMY of God! See for yourself:

From Ezekiel:

Because your heart is prideful, and you have said,
I am God, I sit at the Seat of God!,
in the midst of the seas,
yet you are a Man, and not God,
though you think your heart to be the heart of God.
Behold, you are wiser than Daniel,
there is no secret that they can hide from you...
Therefore says the Lord GOD:
"Because you have proclaimed your heart the heart of God,
therefore I will bring strangers upon thee --
the terrible of the Gentiles --
and they shall draw their sword against the beauty of your wisdom,
and they shall defile your brightness.
They shall bring you down to the pit,
and you shall die the death of them that are slain
in the midst of the seas.

---------------

A guy who said he was god, slayed by gentiles...sounds like Jesus.

--------------------

Another warning to God's enemies:

From Ezekiel:

And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars of heaven dark. I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness upon your land, says Lord GOD.



From Luke:

And it was about the sixth hour,
and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
And the sun was darkened,
and the veil of the temple was torn down the middle.

From Ezekiel:
Will you say before him that kills you, "I am God"?
But you are a man, and not God,
in the hand of him who kills you.
You shall die the death of the uncircumcised,
by the hand of foreigners: for I have spoken it!

-----------------------

Sounds like Jesus facing Pilate.

 

Uncanny resemblance between Jesus and pagan God of Hebrews, Baal/Beezelbub:


Likewise the chief priests mocked him, with the scribes and elders, and said,
"...If he is the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
He trusted in 'God', let him deliver him now, if he will have him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God'."

...Now from the noon hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?!" which means, "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?!"
Some who stood there, when they heard that, said, "He calls for Elijah."
...Others said, "Let it be. Let us see whether Elijah will come to save him..



And from Kings:

Elijah said to the prophets of Baal,
"Call on the name of your god..."

And it came to pass at noon,
that Elijah mocked them, and said,
"Cry aloud! For surely he is 'God'.
Or, perhaps he is deep in thought,
Or, perhaps he is busy,
Or, perhaps he is on a journey,
Or, perhaps he is sleeping, and must be woken."

God's warning about a deceiver calling himself Son of Man:

"Do not put your trust in leaders,
in the Son of Man in whom there is no salvation!
His breath of life departs, he returns to the ground!
On that very day, his plans come to nothing!"
----------------

I have a bad feeling about this....

 

More exposes-Communion strictly forbidden by old testament:


And any man of the house of Israel,
or of the strangers that travel among you,
who eats any kind of Blood,
I will set my face against that soul that eats Blood,
and will cut him off from among his people.

------------------------------

They who follow a different god will have their sorrows multiplied.
Their drink offerings of Blood will I not offer,
nor take up their names to my lips.
-----------------------------------

Woe to them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle drink,
forgiving the sinful for a Bribe,
and denying righteousness to the righteous!
-------------------------------

Prophecy relating to Christian church:

For their rock is not as our Rock,
even our enemies admit.
For their Vine
is of the Vine of Sodom
and of the fields of Gomorrah...
Their wine is the venom of snakes,
and the cruel venom of serpents.

God will judge his people, and have compassion...
And he shall say,
"Where are their gods,
their 'Rock' in whom they trusted,
those which ate the fat of their sacrifices,
and drank the wine of their Drink offering?
Let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
See now that I myself am 'HE',
and there are no other deities with me."

 

Even more:


God is not a man, else he might lie,
neither is God the Son of Man,
else he might change his mind.
Has he said, and shall not do?
or has he spoken, and shall not make it so?


God states the Magi and Jesus awaking Lazarus are abominations in the OT:

There shall not be found among you
any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire,
or that uses divination or sorcery,
or an observer of signs(Magi), or a witch,
Or a spell-caster, or a consulter of mediums,
or a wizard, or one who communicates with the spirits of the dead(Jesus + Lazarus!).
For ALL who do these things
are an abomination to *YAHWEH*,
and because of these abominations
*YAHWEH*, your god, drives them out from before you.

More prophecies relating to Jesus as a false messiah:

But a prophet who shall presume to speak a word in my name,
which I have not commanded him to speak,
or that shall speak in the name of another God,
that prophet shall die.
When a prophet speaks in the name of *YAHWEH*,
if the predicted event does not occur, nor come to pass,
then it is a prophecy which *YAHWEH* has not spoken,
and that prophet has spoken presumptuously.
You must not fear him.
Deu 13:1-11

If there arises among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a miracle,
and the sign or the miracle of which he spoke comes to pass, and says, 'Let us go after and worship other Gods,' as you have not known,
you shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, because *YAHWEH*, your god, is testing you, to see whether you love *YAHWEH*, your god, with all your heart and soul.
It is *YAHWEH*, your god, whom you all must follow, and him you must revere, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and you shall worship him, and stick with him.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he has preached in an attempt to turn you away from *YAHWEH*, your god -- who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and saved you from the house of bondage -- to turn you away from the ways in which *YAHWEH*, your god, has commanded you to walk. In this way you shall purge the evil from you.
If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your love, or your friend, who is like your own self, persuades you in private, saying, 'Let us go and serve another God,' which you nor your fathers have known --
whether the Gods of the people which are around you, near you, or the ones far from you, from one end of the land to the other --
you shall not consent to him, nor listen to him, neither shall you pity him, neither shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him.
Rather, you must kill him! Your hand should be first upon him to put him to death! And, afterwards, the hand of all the people.
And you shall stone him with stones, so that he will die! Because he has sought to turn you away from *YAHWEH*, your god, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall not repeat any such wickedness among you.

 

Anyone know why the name Jesus is not bothersome when the prophecy says his name shall be Emmanuel?

 

I wonder why no christians have anything to say about the similarities between the man god christ and the older god men whose stories are so similar to his?

 

Perhaps because they aren't Christians once they have looked into it?

 

Is this not an instance where the New Testament writers have clearly manufactured events to fit OT predictions?




I'm laughing becasue of the use of "OT"

My first thought was "Original Trilogy" when I read that sentence. hehe.

ok, sorry, carry on.

funny stuff.

 

I agree with mister bunny's answer, sleazo. Really getting into the study of myth and paganism, i think one is bound to question if Jesus is really divine. This is something Christians as a whole won't do, for better or worse. The very base of being christian is believing Jesus is God. Questioning that may be seen as a sin. I like what Thomas Jefferson said, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

Now some christians have obviously questioned it, and various explanations have come up, the most freaky (to me) being that Satan had these myths written before hand so that people would question Jesus' divinity as soon as he arrived on the scene.

From all i've read the similarities between Jesus and other God or God -like myths that came before him are just too striking. And to be honest, it's only within the last year or so that i've even been aware of figures like Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysus. I feel this knowledge, (though widely available if you look on your own) is being suppressed or overly played down and mocked by the church. Sure took me along time to discover it.

I think what we need is alot less dogma and alot more archaeology. But even then, i don't know if the culture is ready to process and deal with this type of information, and what it may mean to their identities. I'm still a little dumfounded and blown away by it, and i don't think i have as much to lose by being so. (i know, except my soul.)

[/ramble]

 

Cydonia I really like that qoute by Jefferson, i had never read that before.
I myself do wonder how people can read about these myths and still believe in literalist Christianity. I have only read about it in recent years and it is very intriguing to me. I just wish people would take a step back and examine things before blindly following them.

 

Looks like things are swinging back in Christian direction....apparentally there's some amazing miracle happening at the wailing wall, and also some new fossils have been found which just disproved evolution...