The Bible Thread: Help Fight Redundancy

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Apr 10, 2002.

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  1. sleazo Jedi Master

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    Aug 13, 2001
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    And it was the birth date of various pagan godmen who shared the same stories and allegorical function of Jesus
  2. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 13, 2000
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    Hmm, I haven't heard of them, but I do know from a Zoroastrian friend of mine that they consider their priests (they call them magi) to be the three magi that visited the Christ child.

    According to him their holy men had visions telling of the Christ child's coming. Which I find interesting.
  3. sleazo Jedi Master

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    Aug 13, 2001
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    From Chris2's post on page 14
    Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger42, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.43
  4. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
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    I'll find the quote if i can, i was recently reading a joseph campbell book, and he said the magi meant priests of mithras.


    Mithras was supposed to be born on or around Dec.25th as well. This is all really about the winter solstice.
  5. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
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    From the same site i linked to earlier, just in case it was missed by anyone who went there. :p

    Life events shared by Osiris-Dionysus and Jesus
    The following stories appear both in the Gospels and in the myths of many of the godmen:
    Conception:
    God was his father. This was believed to be literally true in the case of Osiris-Dionysus; their God came to earth and engaged in sexual intercourse with a human. The father of Jesus is God in the form of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).
    A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.
    Birth:
    He was born in a cave or cowshed. Luke 2:7 mentions that Jesus was placed in a manger - an eating trough for animals. An early Christian tradition said that the manger was in a cave.
    His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.
    Ministry:
    At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
    He was powerless to perform miracles in his home town.
    His followers were born-again through baptism in water.
    He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
    He had 12 disciples.
    He was accused of licentious behavior.
    Execution, resurrection, etc:
    He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
    He died "as a sacrifice for the sins of the world." 1
    He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross. 
    After death, he descended into hell.
    On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
    The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers
    He later ascended to heaven.
    His titles:
    God made flesh.
    Savior of the world.
    Son of God.
    Beliefs about the Godman:
    He is "God made man," and equal to the Father.
    He will return in the last days.
    He will judge the human race at that time.
    Humans are separated from God by original sin. The godman's sacrificial death reunites the believer with God and atones for the original sin.

    All of the Pagan myths had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). It is obvious that if any copying occurred, it was the followers of Jesus incorporating into his biography the myths and legends of Osiris-Dionysus, not vice-versa.


    religioustolerance.org

  6. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 13, 2000
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    Hmm, that's weird, because the Zoroastrian told me that they refer to their priests as magi and they have an extensive account/tradition of their priests going to the Christ child. Not to Osiris-dionysis, Mithras, or Horus. Which I find refreshing, at least from the perspective that there is a seperate religious tradition that coroborates Christianity.

  7. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
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    From the same site

    Birth Witnesses: 

    The gospel of Matthew records that Jesus was visited by an unknown number of wise men, called Magi.  
    Freke & Gandy identify them as followers of the god man Mithras from Persia. 
    Most other sources believe that they were Zoroastrian priests from Persia who were experts in astrology. There is a Zoroastrian belief "that a son of Zoroaster will be born many years after his death by a virgin...This son will apparantly [sic] raise the dead and crush the forces of evil. Later Christians got rather excited about this apparant [sic] pagan prophecy of the coming of the Messiah..." 2
    The gospel of Luke records that Jesus was visited by three shepherds. Mithra the god man from Persia was also visited shortly after birth by three shepherds.
    The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. A Pagan belief from the 6th century BCE states that these are the precise materials to use when worshiping God.



    Freke & Gandy would be the authors of The Jesus Mysteries, an interesting and controversial book.
  8. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    Here are a few questions for those who are doing most of the questioning here:

    1. Have you read the entire Bible, from beginning to end?

    2. If you answered yes to 1. - is there any way in which you could understand what is written in the Bible to be true? In other words, have you looked at it not from a standpoint which seeks to dismiss it, but rather one which accepts, at least for the sake of contemplation, what it claims, and then attempts to understand how it might be true, given what you know from other sources?

    I ask these questions because they seem the logical and fair counterpart to the thrust of most of what's gone on in this thread previously, in asking those who are accepting of the Bible to examine, and answer to, a host of arguments against it.
  9. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    Here are a few questions for those who are doing most of the questioning here:

    1. Have you read the entire Bible, from beginning to end?

    2. If you answered yes to 1. - is there any way in which you could understand what is written in the Bible to be true? In other words, have you looked at it not from a standpoint which seeks to dismiss it, but rather one which accepts, at least for the sake of contemplation, what it claims, and then attempts to understand how it might be true, given what you know from other sources?

    I ask these questions because they seem the logical and fair counterpart to the thrust of most of what's gone on in this thread previously, in asking those who are accepting of the Bible to examine, and answer to, a host of arguments against it.
  10. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I may not be one of the ones this post was targeting - as I keep arguing that even if the Bible is historically wrong or even a complete work of fiction, that needn't destroy anyone's belief in a fatherly god who sent a savior in the form of his son to redeem everyone who accepts his salvation. Perhaps that's a universal truth, and the Christian story is just one manifestation of it. Or perhaps all the preceding myths were just prophecies of sorts, and Jesus was the real deal. Who cares? If believing in Jesus makes you a better person and causes no harm, isn't that what's most important?

    I chose my spiritual path - which is not Christian - on the basis that it makes me a better person and causes no one harm. Surely that is a part of "religious tolerance" we can all embrace.

    Anyway, I'm going to respond briefly to AJA's questions.

    1. Have you read the entire Bible, from beginning to end?

    Yes, I read at least one chapter every single day for nearly 3 years, plus I read the annotations as well. I even forced myself to read every bit of books like Leviticus. :D

    2. If you answered yes to 1. - is there any way in which you could understand what is written in the Bible to be true?

    Yes. Much of it is true - if not the historical bits, at least the ideas like "do unto others". I choose to focus on those "truths" and leave history to archeologists. Even as an atheist, I find there's a lot of value in the Bible.

    In other words, have you looked at it not from a standpoint which seeks to dismiss it, but rather one which accepts, at least for the sake of contemplation, what it claims, and then attempts to understand how it might be true, given what you know from other sources?

    See above. I'm surprised none of the Christians on here have tried to argue any of what I argued - unless they did so in the really long posts, which I skipped, in which case I apologize. :)
  11. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
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    Boy, i've definitely tried to understand if it was true, i grew up accepting it was true, and only now am i seeing that it may not be. I have read much of the bible, I've read the entire New Testament but not as much of the old testament. The thing is, i recently decided to read it from page 1, i don't know if i'll be able to match treecave in persistence though.

    I started with Genesis, and right there i couldn't suspend disbelief. It just reeks of mythology, imo. And that's the book that lays the ground work for us needing salvation in the first place.

    Plus, after reading certain verses, doing cross references, seeing inconsistencies, i haven't been able to shut the critical part of my mind off. For most of my life i could, after studying more i can't.

    True as in historical accounts of Creation and miracles, imo no. True, in certain areas, of how to live a good life? Sure.
  12. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Interestingly, there's been a recent report about John the Baptist-they've found him. Problem is, he still has his head. Now, there are three explanations:

    1-It's not John the Baptist. At least two "John the Baptists" are in the possession of the Catholics already, this could be another phony.

    2-It is John The Baptist, and the biblical account gravely exagerrated his death.

    3-Somebody recovered his body and somehow managed to put his head back on. It's not unheard of!







    I've been seeing some of "Mysteries Of The Bible"-it suggests that much of the Jewish victories in the OT were exagerrated, and that a lot of the religion was 'borrowed' from Babylonian and Persian sources. Also, I should note it states that Josepheus was a shoddy historian-that at Masada he states 900 died, whereas we now know it was *considerably* lower.


    Also, considering this:

    Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism's similarity to Christianity....well,


    Jesus and much of OT history is part of Islam, just from a different POV.

    Some of the wisdom of the Hindu prophet "Krishna" is similar to Jesus and the apostles.

    Buddha also stressed a more spiritual, less material existence in a similar fashion to Jesus. Also kindness to others-"Golden Rule".

    Perhaps these truths were self-evident to mankind, the above tought it, and Jesus confirmed it.




  13. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
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    I'd bet the golden rule has appeared in most faiths in some form or another.
  14. TreeCave Jedi Master

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    Jul 28, 2001
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    It's not John the Baptist. At least two "John the Baptists" are in the possession of the Catholics already, this could be another phony.

    Ah, yes, the cult of bones. Not to poke fun at anyone, but I took a Slavics Studies course where we learned that some sects had stories about where various saints' bones should have been buried. They'd go to the site, and if they found bones, it was a miracle. But if they didn't find bones, they proclaimed the bones had been removed mystically, so it was still a miracle. :)
    Would be a very funny story if it didn't have something to do with the current decades old war in Bosnia. :(


  15. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

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    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    This set of bones, however, was discovered at Quamran, site of the dead sea scrolls. They apparentally belong to the "Teacher Of Righteousness", a 1st century teacher who many have speculated is either John or Jesus. Since Jesus is pretty much automatically ruled out, John has been brought up as the possible skeleton.
  16. phantom31415 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 1
    If you see "problems" in the Bible, I'd advise you to ask someone who has studied the Bible or at least find a good apologetics website before dismissing the Bible as legend.

    Approach the evidence with an open mind. Read books by qualified authors on both sides. You may be surprised.
  17. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    Agreed, phantom. You guys might be surprised at what you find when you stop being purely skeptical and start really researching the Bible from both sides (which, to be fair, a few of you have)

    -sj loves kevin spacey
  18. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    There's nothing wrong with being skeptical, imo. The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

    Anyway, as i have said, i was raised a believer. I started out believing in 100% of it. I didn't start to see the other side till i started studying it for myself. So, my viewpoints have changed as a result of study. That doesn't mean every other believer will have the same results.

    BTW alot of us have quite a bit of Senate Floor and pre Senate floor discussions with christians under our belts. Many of the aplogetic arguments have been digested. :)
  19. Darth_Nemesis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Hey guys I have a problem with drinking, yet I Believe and love god and try to do the best I can. But I was looking in the bible the other day on drinking but couldn't find much. Is it wrong to drink or is this just something the church has made up to make you feel guilty. I'd like to know so I can atleast try to clean my self up if it is indeed wrong. I have to admit I do have fun when I drink but I can give it up if it becomes a problem. Thanks for any advice.
  20. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    Hey DN, good question. My pastor (I'm a Southern Baptist) was talking about that subject a while ago. He was saying how, contrary to what many conventions/denominations (even ours) may say, he wasn't afraid to preach what the Bible says.

    What the Bible says is NOT "don't drink" but rather "don't get drunk." I can find specific verses if you'd like.

    -sj loves kevin spacey
  21. Darth_Nemesis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
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    Yeah, but isn't that what usually happens when you drink, you get drunk? I know that's what happens with me. Bleh, it's all so confusing. If you don't do anything wrong while your drunk it shouldn't matter should it?I'm not trying to say it's ok but yes I would like to know more about it, some verses would be nice. Thanks Solo jones.
  22. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    DN- What I mean is, I don't have a problem with people having wine with dinner or the occasional beer. But if you're drinking to get drunk, and drinking in large amounts, that's something the Bible speaks out against.

    ?Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise? -Prov. 20:1

    "Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine. Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. Your eyes will see strange sights and your mind imagine confusing things. You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
    lying on top of the rigging. "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt! They beat me, but I don't feel it! When will I wake up
    so I can find another drink?"
    -Prov. 23:29-35

    So you see, the Bible speaks out against getting drunk and letting alcohol take you over. Hope this helped

    Also, when you are drunk, you might not be able to stop yourself from doing "bad stuff"

    -sj loves kevin spacey
  23. Yada Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2002
    star 1
    Dear D. Neme;

    the fact that you want this answered is a sign you already know the answer;

    Jesus did make wine, and drink it, but there is no record of Him ever abusing it.

    We as human beings all have a Darth side, pardon the pun,

    they do not call alcohol "spirits" for nothing.

    the first thing we lose is our reason, our common sense, and our ability to make sound judgments.

    It is also very easy to lean on a substance for comfort, rather than lean upon the Lord.

    My suggestion is to access honestly your dependance, Sometimes people are lonely, bored, shy, angry, there are lots of emotions that can make us reach for the bottle, just as a baby reaches for his or her binky.

    The trick is, sip the crown a little maybe to enjoy or relax after a long day, (Timothy was instucted to have a little wine for his stomach trouble,) but if it becomes a stumbling block, and you know that your use is not medicinal, not peaceful, and you are not under control, then it is time to cut yourself off.

    Before you ruin your liver, your life or your relationships.

    I say this with all due respect, as I am one who keeps wine in the house, and I have three or four glasses each year, per year; but many people are very weak in this area, and I have buried numerous friends due to the drug alcohol. My advice is to know if you are weak in this area, admit it, and get help and prayer to regain your life and have it be a joy lived in Gods presence. I will pray 4 U.

    1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Pro 20:1 Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

    Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

    Do those verse conflict? NO

    There are literally hundreds of verses dealing with alcohol, a case can be made for it being allowable, but never in excess, not as a beleiver.

    to study in depth may I suggest

    blueletterbible.org

    type in drunk, drunkeness, wine or drink on the word search and you will find all the verses that are applicable.
  24. Darth_Nemesis Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Thanks again Solo jones. Dang it will be hard to give up, my buds and I always usually party it up at least once or twice a month. Life is really hard to deal with at times, there's so much temtation out there. But yet there's something in me that just says there's no way there's not a god, and if I want to see heaven I'm going to have to live a good life. Hope I can get through this, it will be damn hard, especially when one of my friends is holding a drink to my face.
  25. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, but isn't that what usually happens when you drink, you get drunk? I know that's what happens with me.

    SoloJones is right about the Bible's take on it - drink if you want, but don't get drunk.

    However, there's a context. :) Doncha just love it?

    The wine they had in Biblical times was a lot weaker than what we brew now - often, wine was added to water to purify the water, as alcohol kills bacteria. John the Baptist abstained from drinking, but Jesus didn't - I believe this is where he commented words to the effect "It's not what goes into you that defiles you, but what comes out of you". Meaning, it's not the alcohol, it's your behavior in a drunken state that's bad. On the wine they had, drinking without getting drunk wasn't too difficult.

    However, it's harder to avoid drunkenness with what we have now, simply because it's stronger.

    It's also true that American culture doesn't promote moderate drinking - it's either "let's get blasted" or "all alcohol be damned!" Europeans are often taught to drink some wine with dinner and so on - concepts that would never occur to most Americans. Not to say Europeans don't have plenty of alcoholism and drunk driving fatalities. I'm just saying at least the concept of moderation exists there. We have, in contrast, simply made it taboo, which promotes an unhealthy fascination with it.

    Basically, Jesus condoned drinking, but it wasn't the same as the stuff you'd be drinking nowadays. So it's a tough call and there's no simple answer.

    And this is one of those cases where I'd say the Bible pretty much goes right along with common sense. It's something you have to moderate, or just avoid.
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