The Bible Thread: Help Fight Redundancy

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Apr 10, 2002.

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  1. Kerr_Plunk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 6
    according to the bible, Jesus and Satan are the same being "Morning Star".

    Revelation 22:16 (NIV)
    "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

    Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)
    "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

    Isaiah 14:12 (NIV)
    "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!"

    Isaiah 14:12 (NASB)
    "How you have fallen from heaven, star of the morning, son of the dawn!"
  2. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Interestingly, Ra and Quezacoatyl also were related to Stars.

    Is it possible, perhaps, that we've been just worshipping the sun all this time? That Judaism and Christianity are just another form of sun cults?

    And please, don't use the "Satan" excuse.
  3. Kerr_Plunk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 6
  4. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Yes, im glad that some people can see how all of these myths are tied together and that they all basically speak the same thing
  5. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    Not all the myths are tied together unless there was a central cosmological story that came from a singular source, ie, at one point in time, there was a group of humans that created these stories (or were divinely inspired) that dominated culturally all other groups.

    Either that or people look up and see a big ball of fire in the sky and thought it was a god simply from the scope of it, the power if its image, a flaming ball in the sky, making things grow and die.



    As for the "morning star" idea: Lucifer was the false Morning Star, self-proclaimed, not actual. Jesus Christ is considered the true Morning Star.
  6. Kerr_Plunk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 6
    Lord Bane wrote:
    "As for the "morning star" idea: Lucifer was the false Morning Star, self-proclaimed, not actual. Jesus Christ is considered the true Morning Star."

    it seems to me that that is a matter of faith and religious conviction..

    and besides.. i was sorta being facetious, to a certain extent... just playing on the similarity of claims, as it were... i am sorry that i didn't make that more obvious...

    my sense of humour is, often (sadly), dry... i should have added a few winky faces and tongues sticking out :)

    in this case, however, and per your 'correction', a "true" versus "false" statement simply serves to promote one over the other - and is not a matter of fact, unless it has been absolutely proven...

    i will admit that i don't believe in a "Satan," or an embodiment of evil. amongst other theories, i believe that "Satan," "the Devil" etc.. are euphemisms for, often political, enemies - not in a theological sense...

    the following link offers some excellent information in that regard:
    Lucifer

    and, as mentioned previously, Elaine Pagels The Origin of Satan is an invaluable insight into Satan's... uh... origins :p

    edit: stupid typos!
  7. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    BTW, there os also apparentally Sumerian/Babylonian texts which are extremely similar to "Genesis". For instance, the "Enuma Elish" legend tells of the creation of the Universe and is very similar to the Adam & Eve story; there's also the epic of Gilgamesh which is similar to the Noah's ark story.

    I'm not saying that the pre-OT origin of these texts wipe out Judaeo-Christianity; It's possible that they come from the same source, or it's possible that Moses decided to "explain" God by using some of the same cultural references.
    Or, the Fundamentalist explanation: The two legends was created by Satan to fool us.



  8. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    There's an argument that the "morning star" passage in Isaiah refers to the King of Babylon rather than Satan. (The same passage refers to him as a man, with children.)
  9. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    There's also another element that's a little tricky-the presence of angels and demons.

    The popular image of angels is that of robed, winged beings. However, I think the bible really only refers to them as "messangers" and doesn't go into any physical descriptions. The popular interpetation as an angel as a being with Wings is seen throughout Pagan artwork; one only has to study ancient Greek, Roman, Estruscan artwork-there are winged "angels" all over the place. Take, for instance, the Icarus legend Somehow these became confused with the biblical angels...in the same way, perhaps, that many pagan elements ended up getting mixed up with Christianity-The dates and many of the traditions of Easter and Christmas actually are Pagan dates! Oh well, a little too late to change that...

    Same with the images of Satan-there's no biblical description that says he's all red, or has horns on his head. Or a pitchfork. There's a "Beast with ten horns" mentioned in Revelation, but that's it..


  10. Kerr_Plunk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 6
    the subsequent descriptions of the "devil" are perversions of the Pagan Horned God, Pan, God of the Hunt, Cernunnos, etc...
  11. Kerr_Plunk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 6
    from the link i previously provided:
    Lucifer

    "Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King")."
  12. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    For a long time, Satan was depicted as a traditional angel; the only difference was that he wore blue robes instead of red (red was thought to be the color of the upper ether, while blue corresponded to the highest level of Heaven that humans could see).

    The idea of the goat-legged Satan didn't come about until the Christians began to convert the surrounding pagans, one group of which worshipped Pan. The Christians supplanted the pagans' religion by convincing them that Pan was the devil, and found the image of the goat-legged beast striking enough that they appropriated it into their own beliefs.
  13. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    BTW, there os also apparentally Sumerian/Babylonian texts which are extremely similar to "Genesis". For instance, the "Enuma Elish" legend tells of the creation of the Universe and is very similar to the Adam & Eve story; there's also the epic of Gilgamesh which is similar to the Noah's ark story.

    Did it ever occur to you that maybe because the Adam & Eve story, as well as Noah's ark, is truth? Maybe that's why many, many cultures have a flood story?
  14. Kerr_Plunk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 6
    greetings IellaWessiriNRI

    we are talking about myths that took place (sometimes) thousands of years before Judaism/Christianity formed...

    you might be better off to start reading this thread from the beginning so that you will understand where we are at in this conversation :)
  15. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Let it be known i am observing this conversation live and have nothing to contribute as of yet. Carry on.
  16. Kerr_Plunk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 6
    good... we have a witness :p ;)
  17. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    Also, regarding other popular images-we don't exactly know the appearence of Jesus or God, either. God is popularly potrayed as a sort of middle-aged man with greyish hair and a beard. Then again, so is the Greek god Zeus! I think the major descriptions of God in the bible potray him as a shining light..no real physical appearence.

    The popular image of Jesus is of course, Jesus with the long hair and beard-the sort of 'hippie' look. Revelation sort of describes Christ, but it's not the 'popular' image of Christ, and in fact his appearence in Revelation seems more divine than human...(He's apparentally bronze or something). I suppose Jesus probably looked like a typical Jewish male, and probably did not have the 'hippie' look we associate with him. Probably had a beard though-wasn't such a thing required of Jewish males, especially holy men, back in the day?
    There are also some works of art that potray Jesus without the beard(apart from the 'infant' look).
    So in other words, what I'm saying is that the popular images of God/Jesus/Angels/Satan have no real basis in history, especially since the early Church forbade any holy artwork-something which eventually changed, at least for the Catholics.

    Then again, it's possible God and Angels *do* have a human appearence of sorts. After all, we are made "after their likeness". But why would God look like us? Would a purely spiritual entity, as we assume he is, have any need for organs, which are of the flesh? Here's another tough cookie regarding God's nature---what did he do *before* he created us? Did he come from somewhere else? What about the origins of Heaven, Hell, angels and Satan? Sorry if I'm dwelling too much into this, but I'm wondering if anything in the bible explores God "pre-universe".
  18. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "But why would God look like us? Would a purely spiritual entity, as we assume he is, have any need for organs, which are of the flesh?"


    Nope, I seriously doubt God needs a physical body. Now, that's not to say He has no appearance. ;) He just doesn't have organs. I'm sure. ;)


    "Here's another tough cookie regarding God's nature---what did he do *before* he created us? Did he come from somewhere else?"


    No, I don't think He came from somewhere else. There was nowhere else to come from. ;) He just sort of...was. :) But there wasn't any time before the physical universe was created, so God hadn't been there for millions of years. There was no such thing as a year.


    He just was.


    "What about the origins of Heaven, Hell, angels and Satan?"


    Don't quote me on this, but I think He created these things after the universe was created, but before He filled the earth.
  19. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    There are many reasons why flood stories can be found throughout several different cultures and religions.

    If you think aout, early man only lived in small villages or towns, often with the next nearest town being 10-30 miles away. This is a long walk/ride for anyone and so your town and the couple of towns around you become the centre of your existence. They are your 'world'. So one day there is a whole lot of rain and waters rise and it floods, and after the flood goes down, you and the other couple of people that were left from the original village walk to the surrounding villages (which have also been flooded)... Because of the destruction and mayhem caused by the water and because they have wiped out the surrounding villages then one would assume that they (the waters) had flooded the world (they sorta had, having covered and ripped apart 'your world' anyway). Therefore you make this into a legend, something that you can tell your kids and because you can't/don't understand exactly why the flood happened you blame it on something you can't see, something supernatural...something like a local demon, spirit or God.

    Archaelogists have also found evidence of a massive Tidal wave (can't think of proper name), that might have covered the region now called the Middle east, sometime during early Human civilisation and this may have accounted for the story of Noah.

    As for that particular christian story and the fact that "all' the animals boarded the boat, if you think about it if your world only exists to the next village, there aren't a lot of animals that really would comprise your world. I don't think they are talking about Noah managing to find a koala or kangaroo, or a hedgehog or something, they are probably talking their 'world' animals (camels, horses etc).

    Kit

    P.S: People are absolutely correct about the early Christian church having taken pagan gods and twisted them to their own ends. Angels may also have stemed from Roman gods such as Iris who had wings and was the godess of Rainbows (if I am wrong about her name, then please correct me).
  20. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Chris2, Sleazo, check out the link in my sig!
  21. jinky32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2002
    star 2
    I really think that mythologies of Quatzcoatl, Isis, Moses etc are all linked.
    I know this may not appear very scholarly, but I really think Graeme Hancock has something when he talks about a common etyology (sp?) of the myths of major religions.
    The fact that there are very similar flood stories all around the world means that either a) It's an amazing coincidence b) there was one story that everyone else copied (not very likely) c) these stories are remnants of true events.

    I'll go with option c myself .
  22. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4

    Interesting article:


    God's instructions for us to stay seperate from the
    world while living in it is very clear. In my years of walking
    with the Lord; during those times when I began to get 'caught
    up in the things of the world', God brought certain people into
    my life that rebuked and loved me back into the "fold".
    However, it is a constant source of dismay to me that over the
    years these very people; that were so important as "stepping
    stones" in my walk with the Lord, no longer walk with Him.
    During those same long years they have been drawn away
    by the World. Everyday I see Christains playing with the world
    much as a young child plays with matches; and after being
    warned time and time again by the parents, they eventually
    get burned. However let there be no mistake when you get
    burned by the "world" the scars will last as a reminder til the
    day you die!!
    The physical World is Satan's domain, of which he is
    the ruler and "god of this world" (Jn.14:30; 16:11; 2 Cor. 4:4;
    1Jn.5:19). And when we became children of God we became
    aliens to this world, as well as the things of the world
    (Gal.2:20; Heb.11:13; 1 Pet.2:11). Yet according to God's
    design we were left here to change the world (Jn.17:15-18)!
    By our obedience to the Lord and by His power, by His words,
    and by the presence of Christ in us we were meant to be
    God's ambassadors in and to the World. One must
    remember that even though Satan is the Prince of this World,
    God remains in control. Satan's power is limited to only those
    acts that God allows in His permissive will, thus always
    leaving God in complete control of each and every aspect of
    our lives (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6). Each event is orchestrated to
    bring us closer to Christ's image (if we learn to respond to
    each situation correctly) and ultimately for our good (Ro.
    8:28).
    The World S#-2889- kosmos is Satan's domain and
    his playhouse (Eph. 2:2-3; Lk.4:5-6, 2 Cor.4:4; 1Jn.5:19).
    The World is the designated battleground between Satan and
    God, in which we are both the players, and the prize! Satan
    presently wars against God and His people (Job1-2;
    Eph.6:11-18), seeking to draw them away from loyalty to
    Christ (2 Cor.11:3), and into sin and back into this worldly
    system (2 Cor.11:3-4; 1 Tim. 5:15; 1 Jn. 5:16) from which we
    were delivered. Christains are to pray constantly for protection
    from Satan and his influences (Mat.6:13). We are to be on
    constant alert concerning: Satan's schemes to entrap us; and
    his temptations that would bind us again (Eph.6:11). Satan
    has power and authority in the world and uses the things of
    the world against Christ and the church. This is why being
    friends with the world is being an enemy to

    God (Jas. 4:4). God has given us weapons of spiritual warfare
    with which we are to resist Satan, while standing firm in the
    Faith, (Eph.6:10-18; 1Pet.5:8-9).

    A Christain, to be victorious, must understand that the
    World is under the control of Satan and and the things of the
    world are used by him to destroy our relationship with God. In
    the Old Testament to the Children of God (Israel) were
    warned many times to keep seperate from pagan people
    (i.e., anyone other than the Jews; Ezra 9:7-15). God's
    warning for them was not to adopt the pagan's ways and
    cultures because their ways were not the same as His ways,
    and in fact usually conflicted with the doctrines of God. In the
    NT we are warned to keep seperate from the world and it's
    ways, and not be unequally yoked with the people of the
    world (pagans). The world and the true church are two
    distinct groups of people. One must understand that the
    World and it's practices are Satan's church and his worship!
    Whereas, the true church belongs exclusively to God
    (Eph.5:23-24; Rev.21:2). Simply put, people who not born of
    God are children of Satan, and thier ways are Satan's ways
    (Acts 26:18; Eph.2:1-3). One does not have to participate in
    Satanic rituals or "follow him" to be a Child of Satan. We
    must constantly remind ourselves, when in the presence of
    the "
  23. Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Interesting article

    I'm sure it is. Maybe when I get a spare couple of hours, I might even read it.

  24. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Does this man actually presume that he can care for his children better than God could?"

    This guy is utterly out of touch with reality if he believes this; he's arguing that orphans have a better lot in life than kids with loving parents. He offers no facts or evidence of any kind to back this up, and this argument in no way stands on its own merits.

    This guy is talking about what I see as one of the more destructive aspects of fundamentalist Christianity; he's promoting a "fortress mentality," in which the world is inherently evil, his faith (and his alone) is the only true force for good, and anyone who isn't with him is against him. Not only does this idea divide people into "us against them," but it tells the "us" group that everyone else is evil (or at the very least, misguided and damned). If you ask me, the last thing the world needs is more ignorant hatred.
  25. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    That I think is one of the major problems with Christianity. It is advertised by many dominations as a loving, caring religion, but this is really propoganda--actual, fundamentalist, biblical christianity demands ABSOLUTE OBEDIENCE to god.


    if that's so, why doesn't he just rapture us immeadiatly upon birth? If the world is so evil and there's no point to living, why live?
    What's even more hypocritical--isn't the very fact that this guy owns a computer sort of hypocritical? Computers are "of the world", are they not?
    Does this guy even have a job?
    The bible is not an absolute guide. It does not tell you how to talk, it does not teach you the alphabet, it does not potty-train you. It's usefull for basic moral understanding, but a lot of it is allegorical.

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