The biggest fault in AOTC was...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by blur75, Jan 11, 2004.

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  1. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Amazing that someone can claim to be a true, die-hard fan of these movies and yet would state "Anakin and Luke are the same." They are NOTHING alike.

    Darth Geist: Excellent posts. You arguments are 100% correct. And you are also answering the counter points accurately.


    This was hilarious though:

    Darth Geist said:

    "The Jedi have grown up with each other since birth and they can't even make a plan???"

    Of course they had a plan...

    1) Sneak in by the hundred.

    2) Let everyone know we're there.

    3) Patiently wait for the enemy's reinforcements.

    3a) Neglect to coordinate with our own reinforcements.

    4) Do something about the hostage. I don't know, free him or something.

    5) Everybody scatter, and run around willy-nilly hitting things with swords.

    6) Once our casualties exceed 80%, gather in the most vulnerable spot we can find.

    7) Stay there as more enemies continue pouring in.

    8) Die.

    Seriously; Beetle Bailey could've planned a better strategy.


    LOL! Hilarious.
  2. Little_Younglin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2002
    star 1
    DarthMaul13

    Academy Awards


    The Phantom Menace - 0 Oscars, 3 Nominations
    Attack of the Clones - 0 Oscars, 1 Nomination

    Star Wars: A New Hope - 7 Oscars, 10 Nominations (Best Picture)
    The Empire Strikes Back - 2 Oscars, 4 Nominations
    Return of the Jedi - 1 Oscar, 3 Nominations


    Titanic - 11 Oscars, 14 Nominations
    Star Wars: A New Hope - 7 Oscars, 10 Nominations
    The Godfather - 3 Oscars, 11 Nominations
    Raging Bull - 2 Oscars, 8 Nominations
    Citizen Kane - 1 Oscar, 9 Nominations

    Using this list, it could be argued that the amount of oscars won by a picture is inversely proportional to the quality of the picture, so AotC must be the best SW film to date [face_mischief] .

  3. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    Darth Geist, Maul, Littleyoungling:

    Excellent posts.

    A little humor in your postings always seem to lighten the mood.

  4. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Little Younglin, I don't mean to undermine your point, but while it's true that the quality of a film CAN BE reflected by the awards it wins, there are other factors which don't make it a true test.


    The period in time when the film came out, the quality of other films released during the same period, bias against subject matter (or the artists), political correctness, etc. can all keep a film from receiving awards that you could argue it deserves.


    An example would be that a Star Wars film is much more likely to win the special effects award in a year when there aren't many other big budget f/x films around.


    My thinking is that you can argue that a film is 'good' because it received a lot of awards, but you can't judge a film as 'bad' just because it didn't.


    Peace.
  5. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Amazing that someone can claim to be a true, die-hard fan of these movies and yet would state "Anakin and Luke are the same." They are NOTHING alike.

    That's really nice to say. [face_plain]
  6. JediRandy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2002
    star 4
  7. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    DarthMaul13

    Academy Awards


    The Phantom Menace - 0 Oscars, 3 Nominations
    Attack of the Clones - 0 Oscars, 1 Nomination

    Star Wars: A New Hope - 7 Oscars, 10 Nominations (Best Picture)
    The Empire Strikes Back - 2 Oscars, 4 Nominations
    Return of the Jedi - 1 Oscar, 3 Nominations

    Titanic - 11 Oscars, 14 Nominations
    Star Wars: A New Hope - 7 Oscars, 10 Nominations
    The Godfather - 3 Oscars, 11 Nominations
    Raging Bull - 2 Oscars, 8 Nominations
    Citizen Kane - 1 Oscar, 9 Nominations

    Using this list, it could be argued that the amount of oscars won by a picture is inversely proportional to the quality of the picture, so AotC must be the best SW film to date



    All those films got a ton of nominations which is an honor in itself. AOTC one got nomination for Special Effects which it didn't win. The point of that post was to show that people didn't hate Star Wars back in the day as some people today claim.
  8. JediRandy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2002
    star 4
    Please leave Oscar nominations out of the arguement.... the Oscars are such crap....

    Titanic being nominated and winning all those awards is proof of that.

    And it's such a known fact and is stated in books like "Easy Riders" that SW is blamed for killing cinema... it can't be argued by the fact that ANH is on AFI's list.... So is Tootsie
  9. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    "Please leave Oscar nominations out of the arguement.... the Oscars are such crap....

    Titanic being nominated and winning all those awards is proof of that."



    What about declining box office? Money doesn't necessarily indicate the quality of the film, but it does show the popularity of it.



    Adjusted Domestic Box Office Gross:


    Star Wars - $1,074,061,157

    The Empire Strikes Back - $591,573,955

    Return of the Jedi - $567,178,243

    The Phantom Menace - $511,705,203

    Attack of the Clones - $322,440,747

  10. JediRandy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2002
    star 4
    Here's a bit of a reveiw from Boxoffice Magazine dated June 6, 1977.

    the script contains virtually every cliche to be uttered in a war film or adventure epic; the actors -- especially Harrison Ford in a Chevy Chase-like performance -- add to the fun by delivering their lines in an off-handed way...

    The rest of the review was positive...... but the comment on the script is pretty close to what we're hearing about the PT.

    Here's a quote from Roger Ebert:

    Star Wars'' effectively brought to an end the golden era of early-1970s personal filmmaking and focused the industry on big-budget special-effects blockbusters, blasting off a trend we are still living through.

    He also says this about the films in a very positive review....

    It's as goofy as a children's tale, as shallow as an old Saturday afternoon serial, as corny as Kansas in August--and a masterpiece.

    The views of cliche dialogue is and always has been a criticism of the SW films......
  11. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    If it's not the Oscar then it's the Adjusted Gross argument.

    TPM did not make $500+ million. It only made $400+ It put Gone with the Wind at number one make it so that no other movie will ever be able to be at number one.
  12. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    When I see the box office gross listed like that, I can't help but be reminded how many times I've seen each film in the theater.



    I don't know if I should feel proud to be a major contributor, or embarrassed by my obsessive fanaticism. [face_laugh]



  13. RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 7
    "Amazing that someone can claim to be a true, die-hard fan of these movies and yet would state "Anakin and Luke are the same." They are NOTHING alike."

    [face_plain]

    No one has the right to question my devotion to Star Wars. I've been obsessed with the adventures of Luke Skywalker since before many of you were a gleam in your daddy's eye. Does that make me more important, or make my opinions superior to anyone elses'? No, not at all. But I'm enough of an adult to recognize that there are all sorts of opinions out there, and to be respectful of every one of them.

    Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't make me, or anyone else less of a fan.


    Back on Topic

    Don't try to throw out positive reviews to prove that Star Wars was well-liked back in the day. That's not what we're calling into question. Go back and read the reviews and see how many times they complain about the script, the acting, and the overblown special effects. That's what we're arguing here. That these same complaints have been thrown against Star Wars since the beginning. Even Carrie Fisher commented on this in a recent interview.
  14. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Maul, those numbers "prove" the following:

    (1) All five SW films are pretty damn popular.
    (2) ANH is about twice as popular as any of the rest of 'em.
    (3) ESB and TPM are not that far off in popularity.

    If those were the points you wanted to make, feel free to smile and nod. :D


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  15. JediRandy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2002
    star 4
    I hope my posts didn't confuse people what my feeling are about the topic.

    I totally agree with you RG.... Through a quick search I found two reviews both of which commented on the corney dialogue, etc...

    Both the PT and OT have similar complaints....

    Again, I'm running for president in the "View the OT & PT the Same" Club.... don't criticize the PT when the same comments can be argued for the OT.... i
  16. Little_Younglin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2002
    star 1
    Leias_love_slave

    I don't mean to undermine your point, but while it's true that the quality of a film CAN BE reflected by the awards it wins, there are other factors which don't make it a true test.

    Notice that I said the amount of oscars won by a picture is inversely proportional to the quality of the picture and I used the ' [face_mischief] ', so you are actually supporting my point, which I appreciate :D .

    DarthMaul13

    All those films got a ton of nominations which is an honor in itself.

    OK then:

    The Searchers (1956) 0 oscars 0 nominations
    Paths of Glory (1957), 0 oscars, 0 nominations
    Touch of Evil (1958) 0 oscars 0 nominations
    To Be Or Not To Be (1942) 0 oscars 1 nomination
    The Birds (1963) 0 oscars 1 nomination
    The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962) 0 oscars 1 nomination
    Vertigo (1958), 0 oscars, 2 nominations
    Singin' In The Rain (1952) 0 oscars, 2 nominations
    Blade Runner (1982) 0 oscars 2 nominations
    Notorious (1946) 0 oscars 2 nominations
    Planet of the Apes (1968) 0 oscars 2 nominations (Well, actually it won an honorary award to John Chambers 'for his outstanding make-up achievement in the movie.', which is ironic, because the movie didn't deserve it. That award should be to 2001 A Space Oddisey)

    The point of that post was to show that people didn't hate Star Wars back in the day as some people today claim.

    And mine was to show that listing awards has little if not zero meaning. I don't think people hated SW in the 70's and 80's. I think it suffered the 'Alfred Hitchcock syndrome': Given that your work is popular, it can't be considered as art.

    Adjusted Domestic Box Office Gross:

    Grease (1978): $463,838,169
    Independence Day (1996): $422,471,535
    Airport (1970): $398,651,040
    American Graffiti (1973): $396,257,142
    Twister (1996): $333,525,106
    The Bridge Over the River Kwai (1957): $328,032,000
    Top Gun (1986): $287,329,873
    Armageddon (1998): $259,171,947
    Psycho (1960): $257,280,068

    Again, I think this little example can show you why adjusted BO is not a good way to measure quality. Maybe you could argue 'But these are not examples from the same franchise'. Let's take the Die Hard movies. I happen to think that the order in quality is 1-3-2, and I think that is the general consensus (feel free to tell me if I'm wrong), but adjusted BO tells me 2-3-1, just in reverse [face_shocked] .
  17. JediRandy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2002
    star 4
    Nobody is saying that the films aren't popular..... they obvioulsy are....

    The point is that critics disliked the OT during it's release, just as with the PT..... box office take and Oscar's don't change that.... GL has said it in interviews..... so have the actors..... the reviews I posted up there, while somewhat positive, called the script corney...... the same critique we're hearing for the PT.....

    please stop with the box office stuff.... Movie critics don't buy movie tickets.
  18. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Little Younglin, my mistake.


    I mistook your 'mischief face' for a 'so there! face' and I did indeed overlook your use of the word "inversely". I'm happy to support your point. ;)



    As far as the opinions of critics go, I have to admit to being a bit of a hypocrite.


    When critics trash a film, I have often said "Who cares what they think? I'll judge it for myself."


    But there's a good chance that week later, you might catch me saying of another film "I'd like to see that. Roeper and Ebert gave it two 'thumbs up'."

  19. Darth_Sillyname Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2000
    star 4
    I thought it was obvious that the close-up clone troopers were CG. They were well done, but having some 'real' troopers for close-ups would have been nice. It worked in the OT.

    I also don't look at the OT and PT in different ways.
    Well, I do of course, because I'm not 10 anymore, but I can also see the flaws in the OT.
    I don't use different standards. I simply, honestly think that the prequels are nowhere near as good as the originals, and I can come up with some pretty good reasons for that.

    And as for the idiot who wrote that comment (it was the AotC review from Entertainment Weekly), she proved herself a fool. She wasn't talking about feeling no drama because she knew the ultimate outcome. But that Episode II held no drama as a stand alone movie unless you knew about Episodes IV-VI. This reviewer demonstrated her own ignorance by not recognizing that Anakin's fall to the Dark Side is the entire point of the prequels.

    - Or maybe you didn't get the point she was trying to make.
    I know Anakin's fall to the dark side is the point of the prequels, but there are huge parts in AOTC that are just there because it has to lead up to the OT. Parts that have nothing to do with the rest of the story of AOTC.
    You can't just look at AOTC as one step in a saga. It is one movie, and it should work as a movie. Without a good story in that one movie all you have is a bunch of events that have to be shown in order to lead up to a next episode. Boring.

    So unless you have seen the OT the PT doesn't really work.
    So it's a very good thing people talk about an OT and a PT instead of one Star Wars story.
    I know Lucas has said that he wants these movies to be watched 1-6, but they simply don't work that way. He's made sure they don't.
    Besides, I see the PT as part of the EU. The OT works just fine without the PT. The PT doesn't work without the OT.

    I can go into detail but for now I'll give this quote from Terry Rossio, a well known and accomplished screenwriter:

    We have to trust that the filmmakers are showing us a freight train barreling toward our main story, and that eventually there will be a collision.
    Ah, but with great power comes the potential for great fallibility.
    The Storyteller cut is where a filmmaker (or beginning screenwriter) can really lose an audience.
    Compare the first STAR WARS film (A NEW HOPE) with the latest as of this writing (ATTACK OF THE CLONES). The first movie, I'd argue, leans mostly on situational, storyline-type cuts (this-leads-to-this-leads-to-that) which create momentum, interest, and can be followed with clarity. The latter film, I argue, is full of Storyteller-type cuts, and in some cases, not very good ones ('please watch this scene because it will be important later. Now watch this other scene because it also will be important later. Look, they're falling in love, that's going to be important later. Look, they're falling even more in love and now talking about stuff that is for sure going to be important later...')
    There's a limit to how much non-situation delivered information an audience can hold, how many Storyteller or 'set-up' type scenes they can endure -- before they start to feel the story has lost momentum, and is stagnant.
    Again, this isn't to say that Storyteller cuts are by nature bad. Just the opposite -- they're crucial.
    - Terry Rossio - www.wordplayer.com collumn nr. 45
  20. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    Please leave Oscar nominations out of the arguement.... the Oscars are such crap....

    oscars are crap. Critics are biased. Pop culture degrades our perception of what a good film is. Box office means nothing.

    Gushers, please. These are excuses! Excuses and nothing more!

    An oscar isn't worth anything? A critical review is meaningless?

    I'm sure that you feel that way in your hearts and to the SW fan, nothing will shake their steadfast support for George and his movies.

    but those lists that were provided tell a story. The story is that despite the "campy overtones" of the OT, it is still loved. Oscars recognize this. AFI recognizes this. I read somewhere that a critic's list ranked ESB as the second or third greatest sequel of all time behind Godfather II and another film.

    Is there ANY embrace of the PT in such a manner by the "outsiders" (critics, general public, award nominating committees)?

  21. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Darth Sillyname, that's a very interesting post.


    Can I say that I agree with it to a point, without implying that I dislike the prequels?



  22. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    oscars are crap. Critics are biased. Pop culture degrades our perception of what a good film is. Box office means nothing.

    Gushers, please. These are excuses! Excuses and nothing more!

    An oscar isn't worth anything? A critical review is meaningless?

    I'm sure that you feel that way in your hearts and to the SW fan, nothing will shake their steadfast support for George and his movies.

    but those lists that were provided tell a story. The story is that despite the "campy overtones" of the OT, it is still loved. Oscars recognize this. AFI recognizes this. I read somewhere that a critic's list ranked ESB as the second or third greatest sequel of all time behind Godfather II and another film.

    Is there ANY embrace of the PT in such a manner by the "outsiders" (critics, general public, award nominating committees)?


    You want to know why there are those that don't care about the Oscars? For me it's because a movie I really liked call Saving Private Rayn was snubed by the Oscars. You want to know why I don't care for Adjusted gross.

    32 Independence Day $422,471,535

    66 The Fellowship of the Ring $331,149,260

    So ID4 is more well liked then FOTR. That's what the adjusted gross argument. Is

    63 Twister $333,525,106
    I guess Twister is a better and more like movie then FOTR to. As for Pop culture when was the last time there was anything good on MTV or ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS.




  23. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    Little_Yougling, I said popularity, not quality.

    AOTC didn't do as well as the previous films = FACT

    Box office grosses, Awards and Reviews aside, I just think the OT movies are so much better than the prequels. Any flaws that exist in the OT are 10X more apparent in TPM and AOTC. The movie looks like crap now, it's going to look like crap 10 years from now. I don't overlook the flaws in the OT. I still cringe everytime I see the ewoks in ROTJ to this day. This isn't some double-standard BS that some people on this thread seem to be paranoid about. Jar Jar, eopie farting, and Jake Lloyd was a helluva a lot worse than the ewoks.


    OT > Prequels


    Unless Episode 3 redeems it.
  24. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I said popularity, not quality.

    DM13 going by the Adjusted gross
    63 Twister WB $333,525,106
    66 The Fellowship of the Ring $331,149,260

    113 Batman Forever $255,105,196 More people like Batman Forever then Batman Retruns.
  25. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    What's your point?

    Yes, Twister was more popular than FOTR DOMESTICALLY.

    It doesn't take away from the fact that each Star Wars movie has been less and less popular. While another franchise, one that is forbidden to be mentioned here, is gaining popularity with each sequel.


    And Batman Forever was better than Batman Returns, IMHO.


    BTW, this thread is great.
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