The biggest fault in AOTC was...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by blur75, Jan 11, 2004.

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  1. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4
    What's your point?

    Yes, Twister was more popular than FOTR DOMESTICALLY.


    And Batman Forever was better than Batman Returns, IMHO.


    BTW, this thread is great.


    What does any of this have to do with the
    biggest fault in AOTC?

  2. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    What does any of this have to do with the
    biggest fault in AOTC?


    It seems that because with the adjusted gross because AOTC did not make more it is not a good movie and people did not reall like it. It also seems that because it did not get any Oscar no one liked it.

    Which is why when I hear it I hav to ask who cares. I can only think of maybe three movies series that have more then three films. Yet you look at them and then look at SW five films all five made more money then the other three series when they got on there 5th film and above.
  3. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    Why is this a fault? Because AOTC failed to capture the audience the way its predecessors did, and it shows in the box office returns.
  4. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    If you guys don't see any faults in AOTC, which is fine, then why do you post in this thread? Is it out of some desperate need and self-satisfaction to defend Lucas to no end? Is dumbing down the OT and making all the Star Wars movies look bad so that AOTC looks good the only answer?
  5. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Because AOTC failed to capture the audience the way its predecessors did, and it shows in the box office returns.

    Completely false, box office returns dont show that. A movie doesn't need to make alot of money to capture an audience.
  6. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    I would venture a guess that the answer to your question, DarthMaul13, is - yes. To all of your questions: yes.

    If one offers an honest critique of the PT and protrays, some, parts, or the sum of its parts - and offer an unkind review of the film, then they go off uncontrollably.

    I believe Darthsillyname has an excellent post. Terry Rosio gives an assessment of the film that I had not thought of before.

    I also notice that none of the "gushers" responded to his post. That's telling in and of itself.

    I thought the biggest fault of the movie is that there is no emotional connection with the characters. I think this is due to a poor story as well as the overindulgence of cgi in characters - not environments.

    However, I think environmental cgi can also have an effect on the portrayal of characters by the actors.

    I would also posit that with these faults, there is no true drama attached to the story. Along the lines of Rossio's commentary, I think the story plods along to the extent that it is just moving us to episode 4 and not necessarily focusing the story on the characters - something that should be emphasized since we already know their fates. Thus the story should focus on character relationships, faults, philosophies and so on. We don't get this in AOTC and it suffers for it.
  7. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    Going by box office, ESB failed to capture the audience the way ANH did ;)
  8. JediRandy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2002
    star 4
    I also notice that none of the "gushers" responded to his post. That's telling in and of itself.

    I am now.

    Why is this a fault? Because AOTC failed to capture the audience the way its predecessors did, and it shows in the box office returns.

    Anyone who uses box office returns to back their argeument about the faults of AOTC doesn't need much of a reply....it's pretty sad really.....

    If you guys don't see any faults in AOTC, which is fine, then why do you post in this thread? Is it out of some desperate need and self-satisfaction to defend Lucas to no end?

    I do because this is a "discussion forum".... not a anti-SW forum.... start a AOTC Basher's Sanctuary then....


    Nevertheless, I guess I'm a gusher.... when I started posting in this thread it was for the sole purpose to state my desire for the OT and the PT to be viewed the same when you critique them.... Don't say the PT has to many SFX when the OT were the most heavy SFX laden films of their time. Just because there's CGI and not a model doesn't change the fact that they're both SFX.

    Spare us the "The PT has corney dialogue" when the OT has just a much corney dialogue....

    When you make a statement about the PT, think about the OT and see if the same arguement can be made..... don't view the OT "Through Rose-Colored-Glasses"


    Somehow this turned into a box office gross and oscar comparison..... Please come with something better than that.... I don't feel like wading through posts about how much adjusted gross box office money Titanic made. Who cares.

    I thought the biggest fault of the movie is that there is no emotional connection with the characters. I think this is due to a poor story as well as the overindulgence of cgi in characters - not environments.

    If I'm a gusher giving typical gusher comebacks well then this one is the most standard basher comment there is... bashers should put this one in their signatures and save themselves the time it takes to type it.

    Would a bunch of puppets make you feel better than CGI?




  9. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Is it out of some desperate need and self-satisfaction to defend Lucas to no end?

    What?

    Is dumbing down the OT and making all the Star Wars movies look bad so that AOTC looks good the only answer?

    Who's dumbing the OT down. All people are saying is that the OT has the same faulits as the PT. Nether one was know for it's acting. There both over the top, there both you use a lot and I do mean a lot of SFX, and so on.

    But when it comes right down to it. I don't care and other don't care ether. Because we enjoy Star Wars.
  10. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    Anyone who uses box office returns to back their argeument about the faults of AOTC doesn't need much of a reply....it's pretty sad really.....

    That would be the case if this wasn't a Star Wars movie. But this is a Star Wars movie! The Star Wars prequels were the most hyped movies of ALL TIME. So you have to look at AOTC box office numbers, why the huge decline? The huge decline is obviously because of The Phantom Menace's poor reception by fans and critics alike. There is no other way to explain it.

    You saw it happen with Matrix: Revolutions. Reloaded was very poorly received, and look what happened to it's sequel. It works the same way with the prequels.

    And why the huge disappointment in merchandise sales? Well it's obviously because the movies didn't live up to the quality most had hoped for.

    All these things put together mean something. So take off your Star Wars glasses and look at the sad truth.
  11. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    That would be the case if this wasn't a Star Wars movie. But this is a Star Wars movie! The Star Wars prequels were the most hyped movies of ALL TIME. So you have to look at AOTC box office numbers, why the huge decline? The huge decline is obviously because of The Phantom Menace's poor reception by fans and critics alike. There is no other way to explain it.


    I did not know that box office could show us faulits in movies? So AOTC some how haveing a lower box office shows that where it's faulits are at?


    And why the huge disappointment in merchandise sales? Well it's obviously because the movies didn't live up to the quality most had hoped for.

    What does the merchandise have to do with the movies?

    All these things put together mean something. So take off your Star Wars glasses and look at the sad truth.

    What?

  12. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    I think this thread could have just as easily been called "How could AOTC have been better?"


    In answering this, we've all got our own ideas. Some wouldn't change it at all.


    I see both sides making valid points, but being overly critical or overly defensive can hurt the arguments on both sides.


    Is the OT better than the PT? My opinion is yes, slightly. That's just opinion. But I will also admit to being slightly biased.


    I just have more problems with certain elements of the PT than I ever did with the OT, but that doesn't prove anything. It's just how I feel.


    Making it into 'puppets vs CGI' does not negate the fact that a lot of people don't connect to the PT characters as well as they did to the OT characters.


    And it can't all be explained away as bias. When people point out what they see as shortcomings in AOTC, some of their points are valid.


    I watch AOTC with mixed feelings. For the most part, I love it. But there are a couple of places in the film that I wish were different.


    One scene that bothers me is that Anakin buries his mother in a very dramatic scene. R2 tells them of a message. They listen to it, and when the decision is made to rescue Obi-Wan, Anakin grins and suddenly the music becomes bouncy and cheerful and off they go on their adventure.


    One of the other threads has a picture of the Lars family, apparently watching the ship leave.


    Personally, I would have prefered if Anakin hadn't bounced back from the funeral quite so quickly. I think their departure should have been more somber. After all, he just buried his mother. That shot of the Lars watching him take off would have resonated better, IMO.


    And before justifying Lucas' editing decision, just stop and ask yourself if you wouldn't have prefered it too.


  13. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Why is this a fault? Because AOTC failed to capture the audience the way its predecessors did, and it shows in the box office returns.

    You know, it's really funny how there are all these excuses for the "Matrix" sequels and how they didn't perform up to expectations, ranging from "The R rating did it in" to, incredibly, "They weren't that publicized."

    But these same people insist that AOTC's supposedly "disappointing" box office take is due to its failure to capture the audience, and if someone points out the mitigating factors, they ignore them or sneer at them as "ridiculous" and "convenient excuses" (even if they are the same excuses used for the "Matrix" sequels).

    Here are the mitigating factors: unlike the "Matrix" sequels, which were hyped to the sky, AOTC really wasn't that publicized (Lucas held back on the publicity due to criticism of the publicity blitz for TPM -- never mind that the same people who called him mercenary and worse had zero trouble with the publicity blitzes for any number of other movies); it was released in comparatively few theaters; it was a darker and more violent movie than TPM and thus parents weren't as eager to take their children (which is also one of the reasons ESB didn't come close to ANH's gross); bootlegging; the fact that it competed directly against the box office monster of the year, "Spiderman," a cheerful, heroes-win movie (very popular concepts with post-Sept. 11th audiences) that had a two-week, unopposed head start, during which half of its overall gross was made; the vicious, agenda-driven bashing that AOTC took from the media and the critics, which, unfortunately, does influence audiences somewhat.

    (AOTC's impressive IMAX grosses, which remained good even after the film became available on DVD, are dismissed with, "There's not that much of a selection in IMAX theaters." Uh...yeah. Going to an IMAX theater is not something people regularly do for entertainment. It's not like going to a regular theater. It's inconvenient, it's expensive, it's not all that comfortable. People don't go to IMAX theaters unless there is something playing that they actually want to see. And anyway, using that "no selection" logic, shouldn't "Matrix Reloaded" also have pulled in huge IMAX grosses, by virtue of there not being much selection? Well, it didn't. Its IMAX grosses came nowhere near AOTC's. But I suppose "the R rating did it in" there as well.)

    And before someone shrieks, "You forgot to include that TPM drove people away," I will say, yes, some people hated TPM enough to shun AOTC.

    So maybe AOTC did "fail to capture audiences" as its predecessors did (wow, are you actually admitting that TPM captured audiences?) did, but not in the way some people are saying.

    For that matter, I wonder what, exactly, is the purpose in coming onto a SW board to inform SW fans that SW is dying and everyone hates it, that some other series has taken its place.

    Leias_love_slave, I do understand what you're saying (and I am not going to justify Lucas's editing decision because I think it's a poor one), but that may be the reason for the defensiveness you spoke of. It is hard not to be defensive after nearly five years of merciless onslaughts against movies you like. It is hard not to be defensive when you're told over and over that you're in denial or you only like the prequels because they're SW or whatever. It's hard not to be defensive when you see double standards all through the merciless onslaughts -- for instance, the prequels are savaged for things that are not considered faults, or are even praised, in other movies.
  14. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
  15. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Ok can we jsut not bring up gross and awards and so on.

    They have nothing to do with how a movie looks.
  16. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Hello, Leias_love_slave. 8-} I edited my post to reply to something you said.
  17. Ganwick_Trag Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2002
    star 1


    How on Earth anyone in their right mind would argue that AOTC's box office gross is a negative just goes to show how some people are desperately obsessed with figuring out ways to put the prequels in a negative light.

    AOTC grossed 648 million dollars world-wide at the box office and it earned tens of millions of dollars in additional revenue from sales of DVD and VHS, sales to cable television and other TV sales all over the world, and pay per view. Plus IMAX revenue. This was a very profitable film. And keep in mind it's the FIFTH film in a movie franchise almost 30 years old That's an amazing accomplishment, not a failure.

  18. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Critics have the avenue to a medium that influences a greater number of folks than a messageboard.
  19. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Sometimes in our zeal to represent our point of view, we get carried away. I'm guilty of it too.

  20. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Thank you for cementing my point, Randy. I never argued that there wasn't a belief among some industry people that Star Wars is to blame for changing the direction of cinema. What I said was that most of them acknowledge Star Wars as an amazing movie still, and your positive reviews with that sentiment prove it.
  21. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Seems like critics for the forseeable future are professionally scared to throw kudos on films like Star Wars and Matrix when it's safer to save that for films like a Victorian-era Merchant-Ivory piece. Some of those critics probably post here.
  22. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    People can say whatever they want, Randy. They are wrong, George Lucas is wrong, and apologist fans/actors making excuses on his behalf are also wrong. ANH and ESB have rave reviews. What few original critiques from their times of release show the positive outweighing the negative by a good margin, 4:1 for ESB in fact. And with considering what reviews can be found now, the ratio gets much better. There is absolutely no reasonable indicator to point towards the conclusion you and your like-minded ilk love to propogate. Nothing but your own wishful thinking.

    And if you want to show that I'm wrong, do it. Not by the words of others, do it by showing me cold hard evidence. I've proven that the original reviews were much more positive than negative. I've proven that the current ones are even moreso. I've proven that ANH and ESB were nominated for countless awards from the very critics you propose don't like the films. What have you proven? Nothing.

    The same complaints about the PT can indeed be found in the OT, in that you are correct (for once). You missed one crucial piece of information though, the words "on an infinitely smaller scale". The problems that ravage the PT were minor hinderances to ANH and ESB, the reason for that being that they occured much, much less frequently.
  23. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Sapient, critics loved the original Matrix even if they didn't love the other two. They don't seem to be unwilling to give 'unsafe' films good reviews, they're unwilling to give films they don't like good reviews.
  24. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    People can say whatever they want. They are wrong, George Lucas is wrong, and apologist fans/actors making excuses on his behalf are also wrong.

    If you say so. There is no reason any saying anything else on your post. If ever one who likes the PT is wrong. [face_plain]


    Again when did gross, critics reviews, and what popl culture think of a movie become a fault? It never well be a fault because they are not what makes a movie great.

  25. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    I think you're way off Shelley.

    First of all, Attack of the Clones's media blitz was still far above and beyond your average blockbuster media blitz. You still had the Time cover story, you still had it on the news just about everyday before the release, you still had all the merchandise. It was still the 2nd biggest media blitz next to Spiderman.

    Secondly, Attack of the Clones is hardly "dark". It still has the space battles, it still has the lightsaber fights, it still has the lame jokes, at the heart of it, it's still a FAMILY movie. Although I can see where maybe some of the tone can account for a little bit of the box office drop.

    Thirdly, bootlegging? When the original Star Wars movie came out movie attendance was hovering around 1 billion, now it's almost twice that. So bootlegging is irrelevant.

    Fourthly, you have to take in account public reaction to the previous movie. Again, look at the Matrix. It's OBVIOUS that Matrix: Revolutions had a disappointing box office because of Matrix: Reloaded. Reloaded was bashed by critics, fans, and casual movie-goers alike. On the flip side, look at Lord of the Rings, it was praised by critics and movie-goers, and box office results have grown since Fellowship of the Ring. Even despite The Two Towers being "dark".

    Nobody cares whether you liked the movie or not, but you've just got to admit that the general public hasn't enjoyed the prequels as much as anticipated.
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