Amph Blade Runner (Original, Black Lotus, 2049, 2099)

Diving in again!

Okay, let's table the sequel novels. But we don't have to call it a "Nexus-7" to convey the idea, which I'm speculating as a fan, that Deckard is a "next stage" Replicant, possibly the same kind as Rachael, which explains why both seem to lack superhuman strength and endurance. We can call this conjectural next stage Rep a "Nexus-7" to avoid having to repeat that phrase. Nexus-6 ---> Nexus-7. Makes sense, right?

Okay, so it's a short time to achieve all this. The apartment might be someone else's pre-existing apartment -- Gaff's or Holden's for all we know. Manipulating photos takes all of an afternoon for a graphic artist on the police payroll. The whole thing might be Bryant's idea.

Bryant is lying... really well. He's desperate to round up all these runaway Reps, and someone (Gaff? Bryant himself? Holden on his deathbed?) comes up with a brilliant notion to use one of the captured Reps to do it. To wipe his memory, implant others belonging to a cop (maybe Holden, maybe Gaff) and let him do his thing. There's an argument, where all your objections are duly hashed out, till the guy in charge (Bryant or someone above him we never meet) makes the decision: yeah, let's do it. Now Deckard thinks he's a BR and has the memories to prove it.

All of these have conjectural explanations too, which is what makes this movie so much fun to discuss! Your idea of "the most sensible greeting for Z[h]ora" isn't necessarily mine, or Ridley Scott's, or the two writers', or anyone else's following this thread. It's a subjective call, Samuel. I think that because Deckard is doing a funny voice and pretending to be someone he's not, Zhora is suspicious immediately and plays it cool. She runs when she deduces (rightly) he's working for the cops. Batty calls him by name, Pris by the time she meets Deckard is aware he's "switched sides" so to speak, and Leon only attacks after Deckard has killed Zhora, proving he's switched sides.

Bryant is really good liar. Such people exist; I've met them. The risk of exposure is a calculated risk. If the best chance of discovering a Rep is the V-K machine, and Deckard is the best there is at employing that device, who will expose Deckard and how? You can disagree with the decision, but characters in a story can make a choice you personally object to without it making the story implausible.

1a) Because that's the next phase of Replicant development. More human than human and all that. He blends better.
1b) I don't know, but that doesn't mean there isn't a possible answer. Call him an experiment.
1c) No, but the police might like the idea of using Reps to stalk and kill Reps. Takes their own guys outta the line of fire. Bryant, who hates Reps, might like it this way.
1d) A calculated risk. See above regarding Deckard being the best on the V-K machine.

Okay, let's get you up on the ropes for a change: How do you explain Deckard's eye shine and unicorn dream if he's purely human?

 

the eyeshine could just simply be a cinematic effect and the unicorn could be indicative of rachel being special and unique. like how unicorns aren't just workhorses, or racehorses or any kind of horse at all. because she's a special skinjob, unlike all the rest.

 

But Gaff's origami callback to Deckard's dream cannot be a coincidence. That's not how movies work. The filmmaker is telling us something. What is it?

 

uhhhhh... i guess they're saying that deckard must be a skinjob. no other way of lookin' at that one.

 

Good answer.

 

Except Rachel is a Nexus 6, not 7. Bryant says that there is a Nexus 6 at Tyrells and tells Deckard to use the machine on it.
So she is of the same nexus line as Batty, except it seems that she had some childhood memories that Batty didn't have.

[/QUOTE]

An eyeglow can happen when light is reflected in the eye in a certain way. Many cameras have an "anti-red eyes function".
The Unicorn can be explained with it being a female symbol and Gaff knows about Deckard and Rachel and he let her live. So the Unicorn refers to her and not Deckard.
In stories a Unicorn is sometime snared by a vigin female, this could be Rachel and thus Deckard is the unicorn.
Lastly, Rachel has childhood memories implanted, not dreams. A Unicorn does not exist so it can't be something that Deckard met. So a dream then? But most dreams fades away quickly unless it is really significant. If it was, then deckard might have talked about it at work and Gaff heard about it.

Also when Rachel was told that she was a replicant she became very upset and with good reason. She has just leanred that her entire life is a lie, plus that her life will be rather short either way, BR bullet or four year life span.
Deckard just nods at the Unicorn, doesn't seem like a man that just learned that he is a "robot".

Going further, in the film, all replicants are called by their first name, Leon, Roy etc while the humans are called by their last, Tyrell, Sebastian. Deckard is also called by his last name so by that logic he is.

Other evidence that has been used, Deckard has lots of photos on his piano. Yes but Bryant has photos on his desk, is he also a replicant? And having photos is rather common with humans in our world.

Finish this later.

Oh, almost forgot, another logic problem in the film is that after the six replicants tried to break into Tyrell co and two died. Bryant had the idea that they might try and disguise themselves as new workes and had Holden to WK tests on the new employes. Ok fair enough but they have photos of Roy and the others so why bother with the WK test when they KNOW what the replicants look like?

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

There's no Nexus 7s in the film. The Nexus 6 didn't have memories; Rachel did and that's what made her human. But really, it's false to assume Nexus 6 = hyper strong. They're built, so they're built to specification - same way the same chassis of car can have a 1.8 or 2.4 litre engine.

 

I never felt the replicant twist added anything to my enjoyment of the film - quite the opposite. I much prefer it with Deckard being a a rather cold, dead-inside human who retouches his humanity after confronting the replicants so desperate to have what he has ceased to value.

The important thing is you have the choice to believe what you want, and you can have any cut you want of the film. If only George Lucas had been that generous I could be sitting here with my original "Han shot first" cut of Star Wars in good quality.

 

Except that the opening text says "The NEXUS 6 Replicants were superior in strength and agility, and at least equal
in intelligence, to the genetic engineers who created them."

Also, if you create a replicant designed to hunt down other super strong replicants which makes the most sense?
a) Make that replicant equally strong.
b) Make that replicant weak and thus at a great disadvantage to his prey and could get killed by the first replicant he is sent to "retire".

Remember, Zora had Deckard down and would have killed him if she hadn't been interrupted. Leon cleaned Deckard's clock and would have killed him too if Rachel hadn't saved him. Pris kicked his behind and Batty just played with him.
Lastly, about Batty, he could have killed Deckard at anytime but didn't. He chased him, scared him, why? Because he wanted Deckard to know what it was like to be a replicant. To live in fear, to be a slave, to know you will die. But in the end, Roy spares his life. That way, his lesson is not forgotten.
But if Deckard is a replicant then the lesson means less and Roy sparing his life is also weakened.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Okay, I'm easy. Rachael (the official spelling of her name) doesn't have to be a Nexus-7, but she is an experimental model with an enhanced consciousness via memory implants, which marks her as different from the other Nexus-6's. Deckard concedes it took him longer to make the determination than with any previous model.

[1] Okay, I'll concede the eye shine could be a technical anomaly that occurred during filming.
[2] This fails to explain how Gaff knows Deckard dreamed of a unicorn.
[3] This fails to explain how Gaff knows Deckard dreamed of a unicorn.
[4] But the movie shows us Character A having a dream, then shows us that Character B has knowledge of the contents of that dream. If we're forced to imagine a scene in which A tells B the contents of his dream in order to explain this, then we're ignoring the obvious narrative that's being constructed (namely, B knows A is an artificial being) in favor of a plot hole that doesn't actually exist.
[5] Rachael dreaded the knowledge, but Deckard might have suspected all along, and here is his confirmation.

If this carries any narrative weight, and I'm not convinced it does, it could be part of Deckard's cover, put in place by Bryant and Gaff.

This isn't part of my line of reasoning, and I'm willing to put it aside. It's ambiguous at best.

I don't know the answer but it doesn't affect the question of whether Deckard is a Rep.

 

Oh, almost forgot, another logic problem in the film is that after the six replicants tried to break into Tyrell co and two died. Bryant had the idea that they might try and disguise themselves as new workes and had Holden to WK tests on the new employes. Ok fair enough but they have photos of Roy and the others so why bother with the WK test when they KNOW what the replicants look like?

The WK test was in the beginning of the film, the pics during the briefing came after.​

 

[First] - If they're able to extract Tyrell's daughter's memories and transfer them into Rachael, they can do the same with a human Blade Runner (Gaff, EG) and the Replicant named Deckard. Why do you think this takes longer than three days?
[Second] - What prevents the police from working together with Tyrell?
[Third] - The photos belong to the human Blade Runner whose memories are being transferred. This fulfills all your concerns. I mentioned it before but you've ignored it.

Okay, take Holden out of the (blade) running. The memories could be Gaff's.

I never wrote that or even thought it.

Deckard doesn't have to be one of the six escapees. He could be a new model Tyrell has been developing.

1) Apparently he did.
2) Your attempt to reduce the available timeframe to "a couple of hours" is pure invention.
3) It's a calculated risk. You're welcome to disagree with the choices of the fictional characters in this fictional narrative, but because you would do something different doesn't make their choices implausible.
[4] Sure I do, Rachael's memories derive from Tyrell's daughter (or niece?). There's your "movie evidence".

He might suspect or know that they tweaked his memories and "turned" him. This remains a mystery.

I don't know. Why not? Once again, this is a purely fictional narrative; what you choose to imagine as implausible within a largely unknown and unknowable world is purely subjective. Batty's motives might be something along the lines of testing this new kind of emotional Replicant, to ensure that he (Deckard) meets Batty's standards before allowing him to join the human world as a human. Just spitballin' here.

Files can be deleted or altered by the people who, ya know, create the files in the first place -- namely, Tyrell and the cops.

Deckard doesn't have to be one of the six escapees for the general idea that he's a Replicant to work. Or if he is, Pris might be playing it cool under Batty's direction.

The point in all this convoluted sidebar stuff is that no one will be able to detect Deckard's Replicant status. You asked about the risk the police are undertaking in employing an illegal Rep, and the answer is, or might be, that a crime isn't a crime if no one sees it. If no one can detect Deckard is a Rep, then there's no risk in using him.

Works for me.

 

No, the pics of Roy, Zora and Pris were from when they were made. They had data on strength, intelligence, incept date and what their primary function was. So either the police had those photos and for some reason decided not to bother using them. Or they didn't have them and only asked to get them after Holden was shot. Neither of which makes much sense. The police have known about these replicants being on earth for about two weeks.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor.

 

Wut. Replicants sometimes make it to Earth. Like any other being ont he planet right now they are anonymous then they commit a crime. Holden is killed by one. The pics are then shown to Deckard. It all adds up.

 

I will try to shorten these posts as they have gotten a bit long.

You seem to agree that Deckard might have been a replicant that was created on earth and worked as a Blade Runner for several years before the film began. Good, that scenario I find the most plausible one. The others have way too much invented tech, the biggest of which is the ability to erase memories, characters that are assumed to lie even we have no reason to think they do and loads of other problems

Well first you need to map out the brain and find where all the bits and pieces of the memories you want are located.
And how do you know the memories where "extracted"? They belong to Tyrells niece but they could instead have been recreated.
Images shown to Rachael as she was growing inside a tube or however replicants are made. I don't hold Tyrell to be the most moral person on the planet but even I think he might object to turning his niece into a vegetable.

Nothing prevents it but given the short timeframe involved and that Bryant was not shown to have knowledge of these new kinds of replicants and assumes Tyrrell's cooperation when we don't know if he gave it. In short, it assumes a whole lot, none of which is supported by the film.

If they have a living BR then why don't they use him instead of making this replicant copy? Since Deckard isn't stronger in any way, at best he will do as good a job as the living BR they copy him after. You mentioned that Bryant was desperate. So I argue that it makes a lot more sense for Bryant to reach out to an ex-BR, one of the best, and bring him in on this case. Instead of making all kinds of experiments that he has no idea could even work and could make the situation even worse.

1) Prove it.
2) Since you said that Bryant only put this plan in motion after Holden got shot, the time frame is a couple of hours.
3) But these aren't the choice made by fictional characters, these are what you say they did but you have no evidence for any of it.
4) Oh, so Tyrells niece had her memories removed? Where is your evidence for this? As I said above, the memories could instead have been recreated.

The movie HINT that Deckard is a replicant but doesn't confirm it.
You take this hint and assumes a whole lot of other things happening, none of which there is any evidence for of and some of it make no sense. Hence my disagreement. Your version of what the characters say and do is not only unsupported by movie evidence but their actions makes no sense.

Lets' see, replicants are not allowed on earth, if any are spotted they are to be shot on sight. Why do you think they have such harsh rules?
As soon as Rachel walked, she was to be killed, despite not having harmed anyone. Roy and the others mere presence on earth was "embarrassing". The police employing a replicant would be 100 times that. How would it get out? Suppose one of the police officers got drunk and talked about it? Or went to the press, or told his girlfriend. If the entire police force was in on this, and they would have to be, then the chance for a leak is considerable.
And last, but not least, the unicorn. If Deckard really was a replicant but did not know it, does it make much sense for Gaff to TELL him and give him back his gun and just let him roam free?

2,3) Gaff might NOT know that Deckard dreamt of a unicorn. He instead saw Rachel as one. And that might be why Deckard dreams of one, he is thinking the same way. Or Deckard frequently had dreams about unicorns and told Gaff of this.
Or, in stories, the unicorn is often ensnared by a female virgin, as Deckard has been by Rachael. So Gaff might be making a sly comment about this or telling Deckard to go and live with Rachael, that he has found what he has sought.
4) You are forced to imagine a lot more if Deckard is a replicant than if he isn't. A dream isn't a normal memory, they fade from your mind pretty quickly in most cases. And since the unicorn isn't something that exists, it can't be something that Deckard or the person whose memories he has, actually met. So it isn't something that Gaff would be privy to.
And you have a far bigger plot hole with a BR, Gaff, giving a replicant a gun, telling him he is a replicant and letting him go.
5) Rachel started to suspect after the WK test and he went to Deckard to prove that she wasn't. The knowledge then made her very upset. Deckard just goes "Oh, guess I am a robot, who would have thought, dum de dum."

It can carry the same narrative weight as the eye glow or the unicorn.
Bottom line, the film gives various hints, both that Deckard is human and that he isn't.
Then it is up to the audience to decide which way they want to interpret it.



[/quote]

I am simply giving my opinion and interpretation on this aspect of the film.
I prefer that Deckard isn't a replicant, both for story and character reasons but also because him being one has logical problems.
You are free to agree or disagree.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

No, the replicants are manufactured, the photos of Roy and the others are from when they are made, hence the white caps on them.
They had files of Roy and the others, their incept date, their level of strength, what they did etc. All of which would be part of the files of these replicants, files that would have existed since the creation of these replicants, about three or so years.
So since the police have these files, that include photos, a WK test is unneeded as they know what they look like.
Also Holden isn't dead, he is in hospital.

Each replicant made is a product, made by the Tyrell co, and they have files on them, we see them in the film. These files list their strengths, function, incept date, name, and has a photo. Sure the replicants might try and alter their faces but Roy and the others didn't.
So the first order of business would be to check new employees against these photos. If that failed then a WK test might be in order.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Vimes, have you read Future Noir yet?

 

There are many replicants. They imply as such. The ones shown in the film are not the only ones in existance. One managed to sneak into a garbage job. Holden went in to randomly test and found one. The ID of that one was used to associate with the others.

 

Yes there are many replicants, I haven't argued otherwise. But as the film show, each replicant that is created has a personal file.
This file consists of name, incept date, strength, inteligence, type of work and most importantly, a photo.
The police knows that six replicants escaped two weeks ago and came to earth. The names of these six replicants would not be hard to get, simply ask the colony for the names of the replicants that are missing. Once they have that, simply call of their files and they have their photos. No need for a WK test, simply compare with the photos they have on file.
So Holden could have made his job easier and since Deckard has just been shown photos of the replicants he has to hunt, a WK test is totally redundant.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Nope. They snuck in. One was fried in an electric fence, one killed Holden. The incidents provoked the call for pics and then Deckard was called in. Holden did not have the same info on hand, he was there doing a random replicant staff test.

 

First, TWO were killed in the break in, not just one.
Second, the police found the shuttle the replicants escaped in two weeks ago, the break in was three days ago. So the police have known that the replicants were on earth BEFORE the break in. Since each replicant has a file, it would not be difficult to get files on the escaped replicants, since they know who they are. So here is no reason why Holden would not have seen those files, BEFORE he did his WK tests.
Third, I know that Holden was doing WK tests on new employes, I am simply commenting that this seems unneccesary since they have files over these escaped replicants and those files include photos. Also I remarked that Deckard has ZERO need for a WK test because he has seen the photos in question. So he knows what the replicants looks like.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

It doesn't matter if they knew before, they did not know who they were until the ID'd the one with Holden.

The only WK done by Deckard was with Rachel and they did it as a test to indulge Tyrell.

 

First, it seems that ALL replicants that are created have files on them, these files include photos.

Second;
Fact 1. The police knew six replicants had escaped from an off-world colony and come to earth.
Fact 2. The police have known for about two weeks that these six replicants are on earth.
Fact 3. The replicants tried to break into Tyrell co three days ago and two were killed, the rest escaped.
Fact 4. The police have files on ALL the replicants that escaped the off-world colony, Roy, Leon, Zora and Pris.
These files include photos.

So since the police knew that six replicants escaped and came to earth they would know who they were since they know from where they escaped. They also know what they look like since they have files on them. Eliminating the two that were killed leaves four, so Holden could skip the WK test and simply compare photos of the new employes with the photos from the files they have.

I know that he didn't but this is why there is a logic hole here. They know what these replicants look like so why bother with the WK test? Why have such a thing at all? Since it seems all replicants that are created have detailed files, that include photos. If they run from where they are stationed, they could simply issue an alert for that replicant and include the photo.
The only time a WK test would be of use is if the replicant somehow has managed to alter his or her face.

I know what point the WK test serves in the film, it is to show just how human these replicants are and that they can only be spotted with a test that splits the smallest of hairs. Which underlines how horribly they are treated and Tyrells crimes.
He is creating a sapient slave race and he wants to make them even more human because he thinks that would make them easier to controll and they won't object to being slaves. Which is odd, and repugnant, as it is not like humans have never objected to be slaves in the past.

In closing, the use of the WK test has a bit of an in universe logic problem, because they are trying to identify replicants that they have files on and thus know what they look like. Aside from the obvious question why replicants aren't made easy to detect.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Do you guys mean VK? As in Voight - Kampf?

Some BR fans you are.