Census The Books, Lord Of The Rings Or Games Of Thrones?

Discussion in 'Community' started by VadersLaMent, May 20, 2013.

?

Better books, Game Of Thrones or Lord Of The Rings

LOTR 36 vote(s) 65.5%
GOT 19 vote(s) 34.5%
  1. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Like I said, the 2 have different focus and advantage.

    The ancient Greek epics also did a good job on characterization, I think Troy(Iliad) did a better job than LotR on characterization, the heroes, the gods are not flawless, they are all characters with flaws and tempers, both sides are not evil. Maybe due to his personal belief, Tolkien makes LotR too black/white.

    Are you saying all other Rohan soldiers still think of their own life rather than willing to die in the battle?
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 20, 2013
  2. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    i'm saying being willing to die and wanting to die aren't the same thing.
  3. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    On that score, Tolkien is more Manichean and/or Zoroastrian -- look 'em up! -- but I don't think that "good vs. evil" aspect marks his work as inferior or less realistic. It's just a different genre, or sub-genre, with different concerns. As you pointed out, so we're finally agreeing with each other. [face_coffee]
    Last edited by Merlin_Ambrosius69, May 20, 2013
  4. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think she wants to die, she wants to protect her uncle and people. There is more fearsome thing than death, the Nazgul is the proof. The Rohan soldiers aren't afraid of death either but they were still affected. So it's too much for Eowyn to stand all fearless before the Witch King. Also before this she never went to scary places like the battlefield, she wouldn't know how scary death really is.

    It would be nice to give the good sides some flaws and the evil side some good points, or make the villains really manipulative. Also on the evil side, Sauron didn't show as a very manipulative or cunning antagonist, even Saruman in the book isn't that cunning.

    Just like if we take a look at SW, post "I AM YOUR FATHER" Vader brought the story up for a level. It's not longer just good VS evil but Luke try to pick the right way to save his father, Obi Wan and Yoda could make mistakes and there is still good in Vader.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 20, 2013
  5. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Neither did she join the battle in the film, so I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here.
  6. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    again, i think you're underestimating her despair, which is the essential element of her character from the moment aragorn rejects her love and leaves for the paths of the dead forward.

    this quote from faramir in the houses of healing sums it up nicely:

    Darth_Invidious, Havac and Bacon164 like this.
  7. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    She was in the cave to protect women and children, also to hear and feel the battle, she was close to fight when the Uruk Hai army broke in, that's some nice warm up rather than let her stay in the capital.
  8. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    but being left alone without being able to do anything to help was another story element that led to her great despair, the element of her character that is at her core and that you seem to be intentionally overlooking.
  9. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    @Slowpokeking - What the hell are you talking about? The Uruk-hai never broke into the Glittering Caves. She didn't fight in the battle.
    Last edited by Mar17swgirl, May 20, 2013
  10. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    It was more love than despair that brought her up to stand against the Witch King when the felbeast was about to devour her uncle. I do like her being more brave than all others in that scene, but totally put fear behind against something like the Witch King is a bit over the top for someone who never fought and truly see the horror of war before.

    As for the romance, quite a few readers criticized it. I think the problem is, she only met Faramir for a few days, and it was after her darkest time. It would make much more sense if they fought alongside each other in the darkest hour on the battlefield, put Merry part on Faramir would be perfect.

    I said she was close to fight when the Uruk Hai army broke into the city, they would enter the cave if Gandalf and the reinforcement didn't come.

    Overall, my point is, she did play a part in this battle, was assigned for a duty to protect others while she was not directly involved, she was able to hear and feel the horror of war, that is a nice warmup for her later story rather than let her stay in the capital and didn't come at all.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 20, 2013
  11. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    Eowyn's despair runs deep. She despairs for Aragorn and believes him lost (on the Paths). Her concern for her uncle on the battlefield is also deep. Her military spirit is made clear the moment she takes on the disguise of Dernhelm. She's grown up in a martial culture surrounded by armies and fighting men. Shield maidens were a not uncommon facet of Anglo-Saxon culture on which the Rohirrim are based. Death surrounds her at this point in the battle.

    The author, who was immersed in this story for over a decade as he wrote and developed it, did not share your opinion that "it's too much for Eowyn to stand all fearless before the Witch King". Tolkien knew his character better than you; he wrote that Eowyn was able to resist the apparently magical fear emanating from the Witch King. Perhaps this is because she was a woman, as the spell only affected men; perhaps her bravery ran deeper than other fighters because she was special by right of birth in a royal house. Maybe she was was just a better person than any of them. But whatever the case, I'm going with Tolkien in this for any number of reasons. You're left with personal incredulity, which is never a good place to begin literary criticism IMO.
    tom likes this.
  12. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    Quoted for Truth.
  13. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Could've, would've, should've. Being ready to fight != actually fighting. The Uruk-hai did not break into the Glittering Caves; Éowyn did not fight in the Battle of Helm's Deep. End of.
  14. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    And others don't? The Rohan soldiers were also worrying about Aragorn might not return, they were surrounded by the orcs and the elite Haradrim. With no reinforcement or miracle they would all die and Minas Tirith would fall. The Witch King broke into their defense and fatally wounded their king. They also grew up in a martial culture surrounded by armies and fighting men. And unlike Eowyn, they fought against Saruman's minions, survived the dreadful battle of Helm's Deep. But they still weren't able to stand against the Witch King. It's not despair that separated Eowyn and other, it was love.

    I didn't say she shouldn't resist the fear, but it would be much better and more realistic for her to stand up, with fear but still bravely fight the Witch King, rather than turn into a fearless woman who even taunt and laugh at the Witch King.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 20, 2013
  15. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Nobody said she fought, but she was present in the battle, just stayed behind to protect others rather than went to the frontline. And before Gandalf showed up she surely was ready to take a fight since they were clearly losing. That's a warmup for her later story.
  16. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    More personal incredulity. I expect the fact that this kind of thing happens all the time never occurred to you? People meet and fall in love instantly all over the world. (My wife and I, for example. On our first date she suggested we should get married!) One's darkest moment is often when a new, good thing/person steps in. That you personally may never have experienced these things does not alter objective reality.

    Too "on the nose". Faramir had his own healing to do; he couldn't be in the battle for a wealth of reasons I won't reiterate here. And then where is Merry's arc? His greatest moment vanishes in a puff of hyper-critical hubris. Now you're talking about unraveling a masterpiece, and reweaving the threads to a pattern of your own, rather less dramatic choosing.
    Last edited by Merlin_Ambrosius69, May 20, 2013
  17. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Oh, please. You're just grasping at straws now. So staying behind is now "warmup for later battle"? Fine, in that case she had the warmup in the books, too, because if Gandalf hadn't arrived with the reinforcements and if the Rohirrim had lost at Helm's Deep, Saruman's armies would then march on Edoras and Éowyn would have to defend it - and she knew that.
    MrZAP likes this.
  18. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Her darkest time is not when she met Faramir, the battle was won and the Witch King was down. Her darkest time was on the battlefield. Instant love is easy to write but too rushed for characterization, especially she still had Aragorn in her heart. People also criticize for Anakin/Padme love for similar reason.


    Merry saw the greatest and the most brave moment of Eowyn, he was with her in her darkest time, and he was able to overcome the fear of her, gave the Witch King a stab that broke his magical defense so Eowyn's blow would make effect on him.

    He fought alongside her in the darkest time, saw her greatest moment, was able to overcome the fear because of her and gave a important blow to her enemy, that's a logical piece to create romantic relationship.
  19. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    The "Rohan soldiers" (that's not what they're called) were not in love with Aragorn. Eowyn lost the will to live, in part because she had lost the man she believed she loved. This is part of what drove her to the battle field.

    Monocausality and false dilemmas are both logical fallacies. It was despair -- over losing Aragorn, over the events around her on the field of battle -- and love. Why you should wish to disregard any possible character motivation except the single one you favor is known only to yourself.

    I'm entirely unconvinced she felt no fear. Taunting and laughing can be so much bravado, a facade thrown up as a defense to persuade one's enemy -- and perhaps oneself -- that one is fearless. But it's fear that drives you to fight on the first place, to confront your fear and hopefully to surmount it. Please provide some support for your claim that Eowyn literally felt no fear.
  20. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    No, she wouldn't even know the bad situation of the battle because she was in Edoras.

    She was present in the battle, just wasn't in the frontline, and she was assigned to protect others, she could feel and hear the battle outside. That makes a big difference than stay in a city that's far away.
  21. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    That's exactly what I meant; during one's darkest time is when a new person or experience will enter into one's life and change it for the better, helping to bring one out of the darkness in which one was previously mired.

    Please refer to the reading comprehension materials to which I linked upthread.

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand here's where you ignore everything I wrote. Nice chatting with you!
    Last edited by Merlin_Ambrosius69, May 20, 2013
  22. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    No. She. Wasn't. The other two things you pointed out, while true, do not constitute participation in the battle.
  23. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    But he was the hope of them to survive and win the battle, he was the hope of Minas Tirith and humanity. The Rohan soldiers were clear with it. Are you saying that does not bring despair?

    Other clearly felt despair as well when themselves, their ally's city, maybe including their loved ones were going to die if they lose. Again it was not despair, it was love which separated them.

    She never showed any trace of fear over the whole battle, both her words and her actions.

    Yes she was, you stay behind the frontline to protect others or provide support also makes you part of the troops.

    No, Faramir was not present in her darkest time, Merry was and he helped her get over with it, so that's why I'm saying it would be much better for Faramir to get Merry's part.

    Quitting?
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 20, 2013
  24. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Part of the troops != participation in the battle.
  25. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    I'm not taking my ball and going home, but I am going to watch an episode or three of Lost with my aforementioned wife, who is a mixture of Arwen, Eowyn and Brienne and so therefore constitutes research for my return.