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ST The Business Side of Making Episode VII

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Bazinga'd , Mar 25, 2014.

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  1. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Agree to disagree. I appreciate the prequels have many fans, but nothing will ever convince me they are as loved as the OT, or that there isn't a negative whiff that persists around the PT.

    It's not revisionism. The whiff was there from the start. If they were as popular there wouldn't be the negative associations you always get when the PT is mentioned. They would be discussed the same way the LOTR films are. But if you want to pin this negativity down to the myth-making of a few bitter trolls that's up to you. But we're never going to meet on this.
     
  2. DarthWilliams

    DarthWilliams Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 29, 2008

    If revisionism needs to stop so does pretending that Cinemascore is somehow a legitimate indicator of audience perception or a film's quality. Tyler Perry's Single Moms Club received an A- Cinemascore rating and the Kevin Hart/Ice Cube buddy flick Ride Along got an A.

    Every other piece of data we have on the perception of TPM (the actual text of original reviews at the time of release, aggregate scores of original reviews [not a letter grade circled on a card when walking out of a theater]) says its reception was subpar. Continuing to cite the Cinemascore over and over again doesn't mean it trumps everything else that's available to us.
     
  3. Gallandro

    Gallandro Force Ghost star 4

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    Jul 8, 1998
    Well, don't know what to tell you... numbers never lie. And again, it's all relative because we are talking about films released in two different eras.

    At the time of the release of ANH and TESB, big budget summer blockbusters were very rare and were usually steeped in some sort of reality that audiences at the time could relate to due to both budget and effects constraints. Contrast that with the PT which came out when big budget summer releases were a dime a dozen, then add to that the emergence of numerous competing film franchises and the fact that filmmakers were now only limited by their imaginations... its not really an apt comparison. Frankly I doubt ANH and the OT would be nearly as successful if they were released in the box office climate of a post-Titanic, LOTR, superhero world.

    I mean lets just take the OTs box office at the time of their release. In 1977 ANH made $307 million dollars (that's $1.19 billion today), then TESB comes out and there's a drop off... a pretty big one; TESB makes $209 million in 1980. Now to put that in context, adjusted for inflation in 1980 ANH would have made $383 million, so TESB has a pretty substantial drop off of over 45%. Now jump ahead to 1983 and ROTJ takes in $252 million, a fairly good recovery, but again lets put it all into context: TESB would have made $249 million in 1983 adjusted for inflation (which was pretty bad from the late 70s to early 80s), but ANH's gross dwarfs both making $449 million were it released in 1983. So overall what we saw was a huge hit film with a big drop off for its sequel and a minor recovery for the third installment.

    So what changed between 1977 and 1983. I mean "everyone" loved TESB right??. I mean that's what we are constantly told. What happened??? Well two things happened:

    1) In 1977 there were a grand total of 45 movies released in theaters from large and small studios. Following Star Wars the studios jumped into high gear and started churning out product again. In 1982 alone the studios had released 45 films by mid-April and over 150 films by the end of the year. The early 80s also saw the emergence of the movie multiplex which meant more screens, which meant cinemas needed more movies. More movies means more competition.

    2) Hollywood started to catch up, and started to release more big budget box office spectaculars. You had the emergence of the Star Trek film franchise, you had E.T., Indiana Jones, movies like Poltergeist, Gremlins, Alien and a whole host of other films to feed audiences imaginations and need for escape.


    Yancy
     
  4. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Agreed DarthWilliams But at this stage I think every one is pretty entrenched in their views on this (myself included). Like I say, intention is not to start PT vs OT war, but it is tricky not to bring into debate reading VII box office. From the media it feels as if there is no more anticipated film than VII, and that's before we've even had a casting announcement. Is it TPM level of anticipation (which was pretty much universal - everyone was hyped)? I'm not sure. There's still obviously massive love for SW out there, but now things are bit different.

    There are those burnt out on SW after the PT and who claim they're done with SW.
    There are those disappointed by the PT who are optimistic GL's step back from writing and directing will mean a better series of films.
    There are those who love all SW equally who worry without GL the films may be worse.
    There are those who will see it regardless because it's SW.
    And there are who aren't fussed.

    I suspect that box office will be big because of the hype and because it's SW.

    For it to be Avatar huge it would need to receive genuine critical approval and great word of mouth.

    If you get headlines and buzz reminiscent of the PT days it will still do well but on a similar trajectory to those films.

    If you get Star Wars is back headlines and buzz it will be mammoth.

    (I appreciate there are plenty who feel SW has never gone away, or who will feel that whatever JJ comes up with is not as good as George's prequels).

    Yancy - numbers don't tell the whole story. If you honestly think the PT is as well loved as the OT, then nothing anyone else can tell you from their own experience (without even having to look at a digit) is going to convince you otherwise.
     
  5. Gallandro

    Gallandro Force Ghost star 4

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    Jul 8, 1998
    Cinemascore rates how audiences perceive a film. You may not like Ride Along, but audiences responded to it well (big opening numbers and pretty solid legs). The film made $133 million versus a $25 million budget. Any studio is going to be happy with those numbers. Again it's all relative.

    I find it amusing that you cite critical reaction as some sort of gauge how audiences perceive a movie, as if there's never been a hit movie critics savaged.

    Oh, BTW again go look at this:

    http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sta...uels_actually_better_reviewed_than_originals/

    TPM was better received by mainstream critics at the time in 1999 than TESB was back in 1980.


    Yancy
     
  6. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Yancy, do you honestly believe the PT to be as well loved by audiences as the OT?
     
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  7. Gallandro

    Gallandro Force Ghost star 4

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    Jul 8, 1998
    Again, I don't care what a bunch of geeks, Gawker, or Red Letter Media and other web sites tell me I should believe. I look at numbers, and the context these numbers need to be placed in.

    As I've said before, the ST is going to live or die based on the quality of the films, not based on perceptions of the PT or feelings of nostalgia from older fans for the OT. As a collective Star Wars and sci-fi geeks simply do not have the numbers to put Star Wars back in the box office stratosphere... you need general audiences to do that. And while a vocal minority of geeks/nerds still continue to harp over the Prequels some 15 years later, it's pretty clear general audiences were fine with the PT and continued to come back for more.


    Yancy
     
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  8. Gallandro

    Gallandro Force Ghost star 4

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    Jul 8, 1998
    Here's what I think. Despite how much we love Star Wars, to general audiences, Star Wars is just another in series of popular film franchises. I think the only film of the entire Saga you can call universally loved is ANH.


    Yancy
     
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  9. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Obviously fair enough on your opinion etc, but I'm not sure where this "what we're told to believe" straw man comes from. There is no conspiracy to besmirch the good nature of the PT. Anyway, I agree that the ST will stand or fall (or rather stand slightly less) based on its own reputation.
     
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  10. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    That's an opinion, but I (and a lot of others) would argue ESB as well.
     
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  11. Gallandro

    Gallandro Force Ghost star 4

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    Jul 8, 1998
    I would also argue that A LOT of people were turned off by TESB. Numerous reviews from the time cite the "boring" Dagobah scenes and I've heard more than a few people state that TESB was not as "fun" as the original. So no, I don't think I would call TESB as universally loved by general audiences as ANH. Among fans and sci-fi geeks, sure.
     
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  12. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    My point is that a person's view of a film is subjective. You cant say anything is universally loved or hated. Even Jar Jar is not universally hated.
     
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  13. DarthWilliams

    DarthWilliams Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 29, 2008
    :eek:
     
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  14. Gallandro

    Gallandro Force Ghost star 4

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    Jul 8, 1998
    Obviously, but I would say the film with the most appeal overall was ANH.
     
  15. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Saying that it had the most overall appeal is different than it was universially loved. I would agree with your most appeal comment.
     
  16. JediGirl_Angelina

    JediGirl_Angelina Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Jan 12, 2003
    There are people actually feeling that way. Myself included.
     
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  17. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I honestly think the financial success of TPM was due to repeat business by fans like me, who saw it multiple times in order to acclimate to it, knowing there was more to come to connect the tissue, AND children who loved it and begged their parents to take them again. I won't deny that despite it's artistic flaws, it's technical aspects were nearly universally praised and offered up some very cool popcorn stuff. The reason I don't think it was from casual moviegoers or positive word of mouth, is because every casual movie goer I talked to about it said they like the old ones but couldn't really get into the new ones. Gallandro, I wished you'd stop evoking this presumptuous idea of a media conspiracy causing that perception in us. It makes you look like you're grasping at straws. No movie in history had more good will going for it than TPM. I see no reason anyone would conspire to cause a perception of negativity in the public consciousness. I remember a LOT of disappointment amongst my non-hardcore fan friends in May of 1999.
     
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  18. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    I just can't even grasp that.
     
  19. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    You guys are honestly going around in circles about this at this point. ;)
     
  20. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    We really are. It's always the way!
     
  21. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Yes, so unless anyone has anything more or new to add with regards to "Disney and the business side of making E7", we may be done here.
     
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  22. Gallandro

    Gallandro Force Ghost star 4

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    Jul 8, 1998
    Actually this discussion has a lot to do with "The Business Side of Making Episode VII" as we are discussing the perceptions of success or failure regarding the films which precede Episode VII and how they might impact the potential box office of the ST.

    But my last point... I've never suggested their was some grand conspiracy against the PT. But I do think there is a certain segment among geek culture who have elevated themselves to arbiters of what is "cool" in geek culture (the websites, and internet "insiders" I cited above). For whatever reason they did not like the PT; that's fine. But this non-stop, 15 year obsession with of taking cheap shots at Lucas (going so far as to harassing his kids), bashing the films, and making it a point to deride (I mean serious mock and skewer) anyone who actually enjoyed the films is what fractured the fanbase and led to the perception that "nobody" liked the Prequels. You keep hearing the same thing over and over again and perception now becomes reality.

    Fortunately the general public could really care less what the nerd kings of the interwebs claim is "hip" or "cool." Probably explains why The Clone Wars was the #1 rated TV show on Netflix when it appeared... heck even the movie was #4 among all movies.

    But lets be clear, this is going to happen all over again with the ST. Some fans will love it, some fans will hate it; and the fans that hate it are going to make sure EVERYONE knows just how bad the ST is and what a hack JJ Abrams is... heck they are already doing that with his two trek films... It's just the nature of geekdom.


    Yancy
     
  23. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    I completely agree with the last paragraph.
     
  24. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    I know, and I agree with many of the points being made, but it's going around in circles and starting to become more of a PT vs. OT battle than anything else.
     
  25. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    I agree that the OT/PT debate gets old. Shoot out a warning and let people hang themselves so to speak.

    I'd like to see some ideas regarding mass marketing ideas for Ep7. Some viral marketing, etc.Also what people might think are the best approaches and directions to take with EP7 on a business/marketing path.

    Truth is-there's really not much to discuss regarding Episode 7 at all. The minute a new creative idea or thread opens, it ends up back in the same place (OT/PT debate, EU discussions, why aren't there casting announcements, etc.)
     
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