Discussion in 'Live Action, Clone Wars & Classics' started by ArrogantJedi, Nov 23, 2009.
Alpha and Fordo.
True, but they did not need to waste him. They needed to add a little more to the character... Waxer for me is one of the clones that deserved more screentime.
Boil probably could have worked as well. Sad to see them go at random like that but really it had to be one of them.
Waxer should have lived
Kill all the clones' personalities, I say. That, and their annoying haircuts.
I don't mind the personality, I just hate how everyone's being set up to be the hero.
Stormtroopers - kill Beru, Owen, Jawas and then frame the sandpeople
Yularen - chilling out on the Death Star shortly before the destruction of Bail Organa's home world.
Bail Organa - a leader in a Rebellion that is fighting the Empire.
Clonetroopers - Pretty much all good guys except Slick.
Yularen - No indication that he'd be the type of guy that would be totally cool with blowing planets up to maintain order.
Bail Organa - Distracts Trade Federation with a banquet...
I'd like to see transitions. Clones can be put into situations in which they cross the "oh, **** just got real" line. And while they did that in Krell, they still crossed that line and ultimately proved to be the heroes. What if some clone has to play crowd control with the anti-Jedi Republic crowd in front of the Temple and ends up shooting something? Even if it's a complete accident, there'd still be that "holy crap, what did you just do?" moment. Same kind of thing with Yularen. We've seen him as Anakin's loyal second in command about the Resolute. How about making a big sacrifice for a key victory. One that foreshadows that he'll be willing to do anything for victory, even if the cost is too high.
And Bail... The man's just got to be less boring. Have a little backbone when it comes to the Republic falling apart.
The clones haven't completely been setup to be heroes IMO. While we have Waxer, Rex, Fives, Tup, and Jesse as examples of white knights. We have off screen evidence they aren't heroes with Lux's dad. I would like to imagine Mr. Bonteri was a nice guy who happened to be on the Separatist side who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have Boil who wanted to put a little girl in binders. We also have examples of bigotry toward non humans with the clones. Then we have Wolfpack in "Mercy Mission". Wolffe was ice cold and didn't care at all that the Aleena's homes were wiped by quakes. That's quite a contrast to Waxer or Ponds later that arc. He just wanted his mission completed. He didn't even try to understand them when C3PO wasn't there, Wolffe just got mad and snapped at them.
"Mercy Mission" and the end of "Nomad Droids' were actually great episodes to air before Umbara just for that. Wolffe and his pack show just how special clones like Rex and Fives are. I imagine if Rex and Wolffe were swapped in "Mercy Mission", Rex would have tried to understand the Aleena when the protocol droid wasn't around. I think he would have ended up underground trying to legit help where he likely would have failed and just shot the place up anyways but that's better than Wolffe or say Cody. Then at the end of "Nomad Droids" Wolffe can't even dissent or think for himself enough to get out of listening to C3PO ramble. Rex never would have stood there like that. I'd hate to think what Fives would have done. xD
Then I think Wolfpack would have been wiped out by the end of Darkness under Krell.
TCW is trying to "fix" or make us forget or Idk what.. but before this show, the Clones were nothing more than souless killers that executed my favorite Jedi.
After that Lucas began a campaign to make them look good or to redeem them per say, but for me most of them are still the souless murderers.
The thing Lucas is doing with clones these days is like trying to make nazis look nice just cause before being war criminals, they might have been painters or gardeners before the war. They still did what they did during the war.
That is how I see the clones and I know it is a harsh comparison - even if you try to make them the most noble things in cinema, they still slaughtered the Jedi in cold blood first...
Sure, there are those like Rex and Fives and Tup, but most are like Dogma - follow orders to the end and even if that means slaughter innocent people.
The Lux's dad issue brings up how biased this show has been in showing the clones in a bad light. Umbara was a perfect place to show both good and bad clones by having bad clones doing horrid things to innocent Umbarans.
Ponds!? When did the guy have an emotional moment? He was only following orders on screen.
IMO the droid episodes with Wolf Pack were not mean to contrast clones, but more to have a little rest before the storm that many of you love under the name UMBARA.
Most of the 501st were wiped out by the Umbarans anyway.
IMO the clones that are spotlighted in an arc like Wolffe or Rex would never die if the arc focuses on them...
That is sometimes the issue with TCW, it is trying to hard to make the good guys like perfect angels, even if we know that they are later the worst beings in the galaxy.
We never have actually seen it happen where Rex or Fives are ordered to kill innocent people. Its something that needs to eventually happen. Rex is definitely still a killer even with all the development to make him seem like a great hero. He shot the helpless Umbaran and then the manner in which he killed the head slaver in "Escape from Kadavo". Honestly the clones have gained colorful personalities because they'd really and truly be boring unrelatable characters if they were just clones. Really, its hard for me to imagine individual experience would not develop clones with diverse personalities. I think your comparison is perfectly valid. Clearly in the end the clones are going to be committing genocide, irredeemable actually. Rex and Fives are meant to tell us this story through the clones' own point of view and perhaps show us what happens when they go against the grain. For Rex alone both slaying Jedi and defying it have been foreshadowed.
The focus in the Umbaran arc had nothing to do with the Umbarans. It had all to do with a group of clones surviving and overcoming Krell and giving Rex a turning point in his development.
This screenshot. The guy, forlornly watching the village on Ryloth burn. He was about to offer them supplies. Its sounded like real selfless kindness to me.
It may not have been intended for contrast but that's how it worked out. The differences between Wolfpack and the members of the 501st who were in our face are clear. Wolffe himself is no where near as free thinking as Rex is. I don't think he would have thought twice about any of Krell's orders.
Hard to keep track of how nearly wiped out the 501st was. They obviously took heavy casualties. No shortage of brutal clone deaths in that arc. There were always plenty of them on screen throughout the arc. I do agree with you on the last line mostly but Rex has a higher probability of kicking it than say Ahsoka.
Sure, Rex and Fives might be "killers", but they are not doing it out of pleasure or some sick desire to be cruel and have fun with it. They are still noble when they do it... that is how the show portrays them.
What I mean is more of a Clone version of those soldiers in Afganistan that slaughter entire families for nothing at all.
Yeah, I know they were just there, but a little attention to them in the way I mentioned would have allowed for the arc to be more diverse and interesting than just each episode being the same Rex vs Krell scenario.
Foreshadowing can be awesome if in the right norms and not overdone.
I knew this shot you meant, but it still does not mean that Ponds was emotional or anything. It was just a nice shot of the carnage Wat Tambor caused. I think what Ponds felt was more confusion than anything else.
It is a legion compared to a pack. Legions are bigger.
Thing is that I think if anybody would survive something like the things on Umbara, it would be Rex. Ahsoka would get distracted and get shot by an Umbaran tank - in the same style the awesome Gunship shot her on Onderon.
She'd still probably survive - just like the Onderon arc. Rex would've gone out Steela style.
Rex was laughing and joking when he shot the poor Umbaran tank driver, didn't seem like a mercy kill to me. That was a reminder that even this clone is a killer. Then we have Hardcase who seems to be having a blast all the time out there. Then we had Boil wanting to put a binders on a little girl or leave her for dead. It would serve to show well to show something horrible happen in a future arc with Rex, Fives, and Boil at the front of it. Its something I push for actually.
This is where you and me are always going to disagree. I liked the tight focus in the Umbaran arc that allowed each part to progress toward an epic climax. When watched all together Umbara really does feel like a movie.
My take on this shot is from Ponds saying just a moment earlier he wanted to feed the folks in the bombed village. Seemed selfess and unprovoked to me. No one told him to do it.
I thought Wolfpack was just a nickname. According to wook its a squad of troopers in the 104th battalion under Plo Koon. I'm not really sure how big or small they are. Honestly, I also feel Krell would have wiped the 212th out in "The General" if they were swapped with they were swapped.
It'll take more than a Separatist Gunship to kill her apparently.
Yea a blaster
I retract that last line and say Wolffe's blaster. =b
According to wook:
Legion = 9,216 units
Battalion = 576 units
Company = 144 units
I think Rex is only in command of Torrent Company, which is 144 units, not the entire 501st. In that case, I would imagine Krell wiped the bulk of them out, along with a chunk of the 212th. I don't think the 501st as a whole took a heavy hit though.
That must be one hell of a blaster if it could do what a gunship couldn't!
Rex's men have been just about wiped out 2-3 times now since the movie. It appeared to me there were always countless blue troopers on screen. I've never been sure if Torrent Company is for real since its never mentioned in the show.
Wolfpack kind of seems like its meant to be similar group to Rex's however, almost a foil. Even if Wolfpack barely gets any focus now. I find it interesting we have the same number of named troopers in both particularly now that Umbara culled down the main 501st characters to around four leaving Appo out and also not counting Fives who isn't part of that group anymore and is something of a 6th ranger, IMO. I think there is going to be a reason for this eventually. Its suspicious.
Wolffe is gonna get the mother of all big rotary canons for that one. =b
Since the "units" thing has never been clarified, I've always assumed it meant multiple troops, like 10. The numbers never really have added up.
I'd guess that as long as Rex is still around they'd just rebuild the company. I had forgotten about Appo, so there probably were other 501st companies on Umbara since he's not in Rex's company.
Right before he kills Ahsoka he'll be overtaken by battle droids.
Well said... well said...
We will always agree to disagree on Umbara, dear Seerow.
You love how it focused all it's time in the Rex-Krell relationship with almost no detours or distractions.
As a movie - it works, as individual episodes that are devided and you must wait weeks for - the arc does not work. It is not it's fault. For some, it is the arc's strength.
The problem with Ponds is that we did not see much of him before he was killed off for us to know if the events on Ryloth affected him in any way.
I am not sure. I am not a clone expert like you or some of my pals. So I do not pretend to know how big a clone group is, You know better than me about that...
True, spectacular gunships like the ones I love can not kill her. The advertisements and public support keep her alive...
Oh no... Look what I found. This is a Captain Rex figure in the 2013 collection, and look what weapon he's holding... Rex, put down the Z-6 rotary blaster cannon! Let's hope not all Star Wars figures are based on what they actually use in the series, or maybe he's going to be the first to survive with one.
That big @#%*-ing gun is un-@#%*-ing worthy of Rex's use.
Rex makes the big rotary canon look cool. If anybody could use one and survive, its my man there. Its not real high on my list of things to see Rex do in the future. He's beyond simple badassry now.
Ok, one thing that I was really confused about in 'The Jedi Who Knew Too Much' was Captain Rex giving orders to the Clones telling them that Anakin gave orders to kill Ahsoka and that she's armed and dangerous, when Anakin didn't say anything like that, plus he said it right after telling Fox that he knows she'd never do anything like that. Fox didn't say to Rex that those weren't the orders, he just agreed with what Rex had said. I don't know what it was supposed to mean, but it's made me not like Rex as much as I used to. I honestly thought Rex would be one of very few Clones, or even the only Clone that would choose not to execute Order 66, but I reckon he'll definitely do it now.
Filoni said Rex will have "an Honourfull fate as a soldier."
You can do the math.
There will be no deserter Rex and he is not in ROTS...
"Units" has indeed been clarified. In this context, one unit equals one clone soldier. It's an edict that began with Lucas himself, for what that's worth, and has been subsequently reflected throughout further canon, including the Guide to the Grand Army and The Essential Guide to Warfare.
Torrent Company is quite real, and as far back as the Clone Wars movie and its adjoining materials, has been named the unit Rex is specifically in command of within the larger 501st Legion. And yes, sadly, the company's had to replenish its ranks several times throughout the course of the series and the war―the arrival of replacements for the fallen is one of the plot points in the No Prisoners novel, as is Rex's introspective on the unit and casualties.
Rex never said anything remotely close to issuing a kill order on Ahsoka. To break it down, what he said was that everyone on base should be keeping an active eye out for Ahsoka, they have reason to believe she's killed three clones―which they understandably do, considering she was the only one supposedly in that area armed with lightsabers―and should be considered armed and dangerous. All of which were legitimate things to say in that situation. Advising the troopers to consider her armed and dangerous does not equal "Shoot on sight," it simply means exercise prudence: do not approach her casually, do not let your guard down foolishly. Why? Because she may have killed those clones. While even Rex notes it's unlikely, that's the kind of thing you warn your people about just in case so that they don't bumble into a situation believing a potential suspect is completely harmless.