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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Cave-A Domain Of Evil It Is. In, The haters Must Go (The Official haters' Sanctuary)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Jedi Merkurian , Dec 30, 2015.

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  1. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    It should be noted that with the original 6 films, Lucas basically always uses location as a thematic device. This applies strongly to planets as well, to the point where the look and feel of them are almost like characters in and of themselves. They match the thematic pull of the story, and they communicate something in and of themselves, they aren't just random interesting locations.

    Whether that continues without Lucas is yet to be determined. I didn't get that sense from The Force Awakens, I got a more contemporary sense (setting is just a setting where the story takes place) but we'll see what happens in future films.
     
  2. Jonipoon

    Jonipoon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2014
    One question: Why is criticism against TFA labelled as a "domain of evil" and a "place of hate"? The name of the thread itself (The Cave) even alludes to cavemen, giving the impression that people here are low intellectuals who are simply "misguided".

    I fail to the see the point. "Hate" in my wordbook, would look like this:
    "TFA SUCKS, JJ is an IDIOT and have RUINED Star Wars!!!"

    This, however, is not "hate":
    "TFA is a very bad Star Wars film, because of bla bla bla, reaons, bla bla bla, facts, bla bla..."

    There's something very wrong about this forum, but the people criticising TFA in this thread ain't the problem.
     
  3. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    I think the "cave" bit is a reference to ESB, not troglodytes.
     
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  4. Jonipoon

    Jonipoon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2014
    What does the ice cave in ESB have to do with hate?
     
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    [​IMG]

    JabbatheHumanBeing wrote

    Aaand you removed the photos of Hoth and Tatooine to support your thin argument (and I forgot to include Yavin IV - a Mexican jungle). Those are not particularly "exotic." Both the OT and TFA have very Earthlike environs. Even most haters concede that point. Indeed this is often cited as a key complaint of the "rehash" variety.

    That's nonsense. I wrote "Regarding TFA undoubtedly Jakku is a desolated and "exotic" location" just as Hoth and Tatooine, because most of us have never been to these places which lack discernible "this looks like ..." features and therefore qualify as "exotic" and/or "remote".

    Thanks for mentioning Yavin IV. Did we see a Mesoamerican postcard scene with Mesoamerican pyramids? No. All we saw where some temple summits (Tikal was quite an uncharted tourist location back in 1977) rising about the foliage, but the decisive visual was the matte painting of the Great Temple, featuring an ancient structure unlike anything that ever existed on Earth (and don't even get me started on the corbel-arched interior building).
     
  6. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    The cave on Dagobah.
     
  7. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    "That place [the cave on Dagobah]... is strong, with the Dark Side of the Force. A domain of evil it is. In you must go."
    -Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back.
     
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  8. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    "fail to the see the point. "Hate" in my wordbook, would look like this:
    "TFA SUCKS, JJ is an IDIOT and have RUINED Star Wars!!!""

    Have you read this thread?

    Facetiousness aside, "TFA sucks" is something that is said in this thread a lot, sometimes in less polite ways than that, and the idea that JJ ruined Star Wars is also expressed in here several times a day. The only thing that isn't expressed regularly is that JJ is an idiot, but that's because the "bashing allowed" rule in this thread doesn't extend to personal insults of individuals involved in the making of the film.

    Having said that, I agree with the sentiment - I don't think the naming of this thread is particularly helpful to anyone, and while to some extent it has helped solidify factions, it's also served to make it a bit too easy to label people unfairly - I find myself referring to "the haters" when it's a term I'd never usually use, simply because this is referred to as the haters cave.

    But, having said THAT, too, sometimes we all need to grow a bit more of a sense of humour and laugh at ourselves.
     
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  9. OldTimeFan

    OldTimeFan Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2011
    I use to hate people bashing the PT so much because I enjoyed it and while I admit it was far from perfect I think it really added to the Star Wars universe.
    I did not like Jar Jar Binks nor did I like the choppy way Attack of the Clones was put together.
    What I did like was the story and the way the Sith and the workings of the Republic were explained.

    The Force Awakens has the bad guy in black stormtroppers tie fighters X wings plus a copy and pasted story from mostly Episode 4.

    Who are Rays family who is Snoke to be honest these are questions I find myself not really caring about.
    Getting rid of the Lucas treatments would have been ok if Disney had a story of their own to tell turns out they didn't.

    I was really looking forward to finding out what came next after Return of the Jedi.
     
  10. Jonipoon

    Jonipoon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2014
    I have only checked it a few times, but I've never stumbled across such hatred. Just for the sake of it, I searched through all latest 20 pages in this thread - I didn't find any posts that said "TFA sucks", except for one attached YouTube video. To me, it just seems like you want people to say "TFA sucks" because it would justify your perception of the people in this thread.
     
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  11. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Yeah, you're right. No one in here says that TFA sucks. Except for literally everyone in here who doesn't like the film and came to this thread specifically because this thread is the place where they can and do say so, regularly.
     
  12. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    I would agree he was tending more towards a somewhat "earthbound" adventure with the OT BUT I think a clear aspect of that was pushing locations towards the exotic.

    More exoitic locations allowed for them to have a greater impact on the viewer, the harshness and general out of the way nature of Tatoonie and Hoth are I think key to the stories in those locations and get a lot of focus, the mystery in Degobah, etc.

    I think TFA had some of that with the intro on Jakku but after that I think the film didn't really use location to its advantage much, Maz's bar and surrounds, the resistance base and the SKB woodland for me all really fail to make as much impact as they should have, partly because there too ordinary.

    Again it seems to me like cost cutting was potentially a bit of an issue here, keeping things in the UK and maybe some kind of tax/government aid deal for Disney?

    Just thinking of potential locations I would say Maz's bar/castle would be better suited to some area of giant rock formations with greenery, offer the contrast from Jakku and also play into the design of her castle(and maybe make it a much larger ruin Rey can get lost in) and a general sense of history.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    ^^ Now THAT's what I'd call exotic. A location from Russia?
     
  14. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Yeah, the Lena Pillars in easterm Siberia but I can think of loads more similar kinds of rocks/greenery locations that would have had a lot more impact and atmosphere than the lake district and puzzlewood.
     
  15. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I'll offer three reasons that can get lost.
    Loyalty to partners/friends/family.
    Loyalty to brand.
    Observance of an event that is rare in human time scales.

    The fourth reason, more obvious, is that some cannot catch and interpret as thoroughly as others, or have as total a recall, and it requires more sampling to build a map of the missed opportunities, overreaches, economizations, and optimizations. My seven viewings were for me abundant due dilligence.
     
  16. Scruffy nerf

    Scruffy nerf Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2015
    I never used the term "sucked." But I understand that seems to be the overall sense. I said I was really disappointed while watching it. I have no problem with the New Hope retread. Or the actors. Or the locales. It's not the way I would go if I had a magic wand and in control of the story. But looking at the movie and story presented, I looked at it objectively, and thought it needed another round of tightening the script. There's too much going on and scatters a cohesive through line. A poster a page back or so summed up what Hitchcock call the "ice box" effect. Basically what he described how a moive works. A husband and wife go to a movie and get wrapped up in the story, and it's not until they get home and are eating leftovers from the frigde that they discover the plot holes. All films have them. But he states the distinction is if you're questioning those plot holes WHILE the movie is happening, well then that is the problem.
     
  17. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2015
    OK, and that's very much the equivalent of Maz Kanata's castle. Like the Yavin temple summits (which are very directly inspired by ancient Mesoamerican architecture), Maz's castle has its roots in Earthly structures, but is certainly unlike anything that exists o Earth.

    [​IMG]

    This is hair-splitting of an extraordinary degree.

    I fully buy the argument that TFA was aping environments from the OT. That was deliberate, and open to criticism. But to argue that the OT environments were significantly more "otherworldly" than the TFA ones is stretching things quite far. I also would have liked to see a few more alien embellishments in TFA's scenery (moons, suns, some additional tech rising from the forests and hills), but otherwise, it's very much in the spirit of the OT. Which is what most people in this thread are (justifiably) complaining about.

    This new contention that TFA is unlike the OT in this regard is far less credible.
     
  18. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2015
    I agree about Coruscant (at the time, Had Abbadon) and wish he was able to do that in ROTJ. Not least because I absolutely loved McQuarrie's designs for Had Abbadon (which are, like Coruscant, influenced by architecture on Earth), and because it may have meant no second Death Star, and a much more original finale.

    That said, Coruscant/ Had Abbadon is, to me, very much centered in the human experience of cities here on Earth. So it doesn't feel that otherworldly to me. Not even in the PT.

    I know that Lucas wanted to expand his environs in the PT, because the technology was there. I just believe that the starkness of the landscapes in the OT and TPM (and their Earth-like roots), with the small alien touches, are fundamental to their success as memorable locations.
     
  19. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    This thread is amazing. The last few months have been people actively asserting (quite fairly) their right to use this thread to say repeatedly at length that TFA sucks.
    And then someone who doesn't often post in this thread says he expected this place to be full of people who think TFA sucks, he's informed that yep, that happens, a lot.
    And suddenly for some reason apparently no one thinks this thread is used to say TFA sucks.

    Ah well.
     
  20. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015

    Your generalizing dawg.

    Like, majorly generalizing. I get it, you don't like it here when people talk bad about TFA(this is the cave so you should expect that).

    And of course, this is the cave. Where we can criticize the film on our own merits.

    Not everyone hates the film.
     
  21. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Thanks for replying to what you wanted to reply to rather than what I actually said.
     
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  22. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    I also think pizza is delicious. :p

    Anyway, let's get this back on topic and play nice in here.
     
  23. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Pizza sucks.
     
  24. JediKnightYJK

    JediKnightYJK Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2016

    Pizza is a rehash of spaghetti
     
  25. Darth Pig

    Darth Pig Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 21, 2016
    [​IMG]
     
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