Discussion The Cave, and places that are strong with the Force

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Barth, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. Barth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2002
    star 4
    I'm curious if we will see places that are strong with the Force.

    We've seen lots of people, but I think only the cave from ESB and Mortiss are places that are strong with the Force. I'm wondering if we will see more places in Episode VII. In particular, I wonder if the cave from ESB will be touched on.

    The Heir to the Empire novel had an older Luke going back to visit Dagobah, and Luke going back and learning more about the cave. I realize that the ST will not be based on those books, but I wonder if this could be an element that will be adapted for the movie. It would tie it to the OT by reintroducing what I consider one of the strangest moments in a star wars movie. One particular point that was brought up in the book is the idea that Yoda chose Dagobah because of the cave. The dark side power of the cave shielded Yoda from being detected. It was kind of the negative charge to Yoda's positive charge and counteracted or "neutralized" the effect from his strength with the light side of the Force to make him impossible to detect from afar.

    It also is the kind of thing that I think JJ would like to touch on given the topics from his TV shows. For example LOST had had some surreal elements and mystery like the cave. It wouldn't surprise me if he would have Luke go back just to reveal more information about the cave (but just like LOST, probably never really learning anything and get more questions than answers).

    p.s. I had mod approval for posting this. Thanks!!!
    Last edited by Barth, Feb 18, 2014
  2. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    I'd prefer the cave keeping its element of mystery, personally. Though I wouldn't mind seeing a Mortis like planet some time in the ST, if not borrowing Mortis itself
  3. Palpatine2016 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 3
    I would love to see Mortis in the ST.
    Pfluegermeister likes this.
  4. agentkrycek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 2
    Seeing Mortis would be awesome. Dathomir would be great too.
  5. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Can not disagree more about Mortis. What's the point of seeing Mortis? He's dead, so's his son and daughter... plus their agenda is lame, let's kidnap a Skywalker and claim its to balance the force.

    [IMG]

    Some Fans of TCW might enjoy it (though I stress SOME), however the bulk of the rest of the world would treat it like The Matrix Reloaded and just walk out of the theater. They want wars, fighting against opression, and amazing villains. Not an old man on a world removed from time talking about balance and never returning to the real world. I honestly think anyone who wants Mortis in the ST has lost there minds, it would be more unappealing than a 2 hour scrolling text of the EU history to a great many people who want an adventure film. Think about it, Disney wants to go back to the OT because it was the bigger finacial success for its day on top of that the PT has huge number of haters (subjective how huge) yet you want to package them Mortis? May the force be with whoever sells them that. The ST will be declared DOA and like the PT ticket sales will disappear fast, Disney won't regain their 4 billion.

    VII-IX is the wrong time and place for Mortis, save it for a Netflix series where 2 out of 13 episodes somewhere in the middle can be divoted to him for saving budget for the season finalies epic battle. VII-IX should be for everyone, OT fans, PT fans, TCW fans, and EU fans; not solely fans of the deeper mysteries of the force.

    The cave on Dagobah served a plot purpose of showing Luke the consiquences of aggression and anger, Mortis didnt serve a plot purpose on the other hand. The plot was wrapped to fit around Mortis. Teasing Mortis via a quick plot purpose vision is one thing, which can then tie into a tv ep later, but having Mortis just to have Mortis is an unholy sin. Not only does his character divide the fan base between cool and burn it with fire, but using him in that purpose chews up way too much screen time, not to mention being so far removed from the rest of the galaxy to be unimportant to the living population of the galaxy and Living force, he's unifying force material... explaining go train with Yoda is easy to accept since afterwards Luke can have a powerup but goto an alternate dream world and stay there... uh, wth.:rolleyes:

    I'm all for more force caves, strongly against Mortis and out of time force planets in VII (or VII or IX for that matter).
    Last edited by Ryus, Feb 19, 2014
  6. Han Burgundy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    A group of vulnerable Jedi plunge themselves into the tombs of Korriban. Terror ensues. Visions, monsters, the consuming power of the dark side... could prove for some really compelling cinema, and a perfectly valid "elevation" of the original "dark side cave" concept from ESB.
  7. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Nothing could taint the ST more for me than Mortis. The Cave I wouldn't mind. That could be interesting as long as they don't reveal too much. Keep it mysterious.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What I want to know is, weren't they originally planning to do more with Mortis in TCW? Now that the show's been cancelled, have its creators said anything about the future of this plotline? I mean, there's going to be a comic to follow up on the Maul situation, but will they do any similar tie-in media to follow up on Mortis in any way?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 19, 2014
  9. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    Filoni did mention something along the lines of "not seeing the last of" Mortis, and there was more to it in the EU, but as far as I know, we've never seen any further mention of it in any of the known pre-production work for TCW, which leads me to believe that if it was planned, it was still pretty far off at the time the hammer came down on the series.

    There is an arc featuring Yoda in the TCWBC being released to Netflix in a couple of weeks, and this promises to be akin to things like the cave, Mortis and the like, as Yoda is delving into the mysteries of Force ghosts.

    But to the OP, I very much like the idea of looking further into the Force in the ST, and I'm interested in the Netherworld of the Force, myself.

    Though I loved the first episode of the Mortis trilogy, as far as using the place as a setting in the ST, could it be done effectively? Yes, perhaps, but I think @Ryus makes a good case about the pitfalls surrounding such a move, too.

    I like @Han Burgundy's idea about Korriban ("Moriband"?). Pretty simple set-up which anyone familiar with the films ought to be able to grasp ("Homeworld of the Sith"), with obvious story possibilities.

    I'd be okay with the actual cave on Dagobah, I suppose, as long as the mystery of the place isn't blown.
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Feb 19, 2014
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What are you referring to specifically? Apocalypse, one of the web comics, and several allusions in Darth Plagueis?
  11. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4

    TCW elements don't have to be used. I meant that the whole concept of Mortis could generally be used. There doesn't have to be a Son or Daughter type character or anything. Just a planet that's very strong in the Force. It doesn't even have to be called Mortis, but if it is, it would just be a nice shout-out to TCW fans
  12. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    As a TCW fan too, no, just no, if its based on Mortis an out of time planet strong in the force... it has no conciquences for the rest of the galaxy other than a location of a duel between two powerful foce users and they could duel anywhere. There is so many thing you could bring in besides Mortis to have a nice shout-out to Clone Wars fans. This is a shout-out that would distract from the core plot since its removed from events, better to have a shout-out that matters plotwise.

    Planets strong in the force like Korriban... a huge yes. Why its part of the galaxy and far more grounded to the history of the galaxy.
    Last edited by Ryus, Feb 19, 2014
  13. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    @Ryus this is all EU stuff we're talking about though. Even if it's already previously established in EU, there's no way of telling if it will be anything close to how it's presented there. There could be a planet called Korriban that's nothing like the desolate wasteland it is in the EU. Or there could be a planet just like Korriban and even with the same concept/history but with a different name
    Episode Swag likes this.
  14. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I don't give much credence to the idea that places can be strong with the Force. First of all, let me get it out of the way that I personally thought Mortis was a mess, and I haven't included it in my take on anything in SW since I saw it. Before anyone says I have to because it's canon because TCW is canon, etc... no. I don't think it jived with the movies or helped anything.

    Regarding the cave, I can see why some would think it was a physical place that is strong with the Force or the dark side of the Force, but to me that was just Yoda putting thoughts in Luke's head. It was all a test. He was setting up Luke's expectations about what he'd see in there, and lo and behold Luke saw something dark. But the reason Luke failed the test was that despite Yoda making him think the dark side was strong in there, he also told Luke that the only thing in there was what he took with him (meaning mentally too, not just physically), and that he would not need his weapons. Those were supposed to be hints, but Luke disregarded them and confronted the image he expected to find. So as I've said before in other conversations about this, I think Yoda could have told Luke any particular place was a domain of evil, and had similar results.
  15. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4

    [IMG]
  16. fishtailsam Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    @EHT
    never thought about it like that[face_thinking]
  17. Granger Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    I remember enjoying this West End Games supplement that dealt with something similar:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Domain_of_Evil

    Edit: I think it is quite likely that we will see something akin to the cave in the ST, even if it is not the same cave. I think I would prefer it if they didn't revisit Dagobah but I would be sort of momentarily pleased if they dropped some minor confirmation of that element of the Zahn books into one of the movies.
    Last edited by Granger, Feb 19, 2014
  18. TKT Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2013
    star 1
    Kirk's crew visited the dark side cave on one occasion, it was fairly harrowing:

    Han Burgundy likes this.
  19. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    All of it.

    I was just saying that when Filoni suggested we'd learn "more about those type of mystical things in the future. You'll learn more about who those force wielders are. That wasn't an ending as much as a beginning."), we all assumed he meant he'd see these things in TCW (at the time, he probably did), but even if, due to the cancellation, we weren't able to see that promise come to fruition on TCW, in a sense, thanks to the various EU appearances by the characters, Dave was still correct and we got what he promised, from a certain point of view (just in the EU, rather than TCW).
    Episode Swag likes this.
  20. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I just want to say that the last thing I want the ST to do is to give a "shout-out" to anyone. If fans can't enjoy these films without a "shout-out" then the writers have failed. I want the ST to make me a fan of new things, not just pander to the many "sects" of fandom.
  21. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I'd buy that except that Luke felt the darkness of the cave before Yoda even said anything. He just seemed to be sitting there waiting for him to sense it. Do you think Yoda could have somehow been projecting the Dark Side so that Luke would feel it?
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  22. Episode Swag Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2013
    star 1
    I always thought that it was simply a storytelling move on Lucas' part. He says in the commentary IIRC that it symbolizes/shows us what Luke could become if he's not careful. Lucas does that all the time visually in the series. From the simple, red sabers=bad, blue/green=good to the shapes of ships and many other visual cues. It's a big part of his style of film making, especially when it comes to this series.

    However story wise, I always thought that if Luke went in without his weapons, he would have simply seen something completely different. I think the cave shows you different things depending on what you are thinking as you enter it, or depending on how you are mentally preparing yourself as you get in there. Hence why Yoda says that the only thing that's in there is "What you take with you."

    I'd be curious if another Skywalker/Solo (or even Luke again) enters a similar cave without weapons. What would he or she see? Would it be done in a way to show us what could happen to the character in the future like Lucas did? Would be fun to see!
    EHT and Pro Scoundrel like this.
  23. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I think it would be interesting to see Luke using the cave to train other Jedi. Maybe Luke uses it for all his students. He may even have a Jedi Temple of some sort on Dagobah.
  24. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    While I suppose it's possible Yoda was behind it all, I had the very same thought as you, MR.

    [IMG][face_dunno]
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Feb 19, 2014
  25. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    .
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Feb 19, 2014
    markdeez likes this.