The "Chain of Command."

Yesterday, since I had nothing to do, I sat down and watched both TPM and AotC back to back. I figured out that Yoda is "da man" (which was obvious) but I started thinking about who came next in line.

We would think that Mace Windu does, but I never caught anything relating to Windu being Yoda's former padawan. However, Dooku was Yoda's former padawan, Yoda said so. Does that make Dooku and Windu equals? (Would be a hell of a fight in Ep III.)

Then, After Windu comes Qui-Gon? If yes, was Windu his master, or was it Dooku, before he turned to the Dark Side? Dooku does make references to this while talking to a captured Obi-Wan on Geonosis in AotC.

And is Palpatine Yoda's equal of the Dark Side?

The rest we pretty much know: After Qui-Gon comes Obi-Wan, and after Obi-Wan comes Anakin.

Now, since Obi-Wan trained both Anakin and Luke, does that make father and son equals, regardless of their relationship? Or will Anakin be always more powerful than Luke? (I know that's kind of a stupid question, because Luke defeats Vader in RotJ.)

However, if Anakin had not turned, and he would have ever come face to face with Luke, could Luke still defeat his father?

Roddy

 

What do you mean "equal?"

You mean strength in the force? Theres a lot more to that than "who you were trained by."

There definitly is a "family line" as far as the central characters are concerned. That family line goes as follows:
-Yoda
-Dooku
-Qui-Gon
-Obi-Wan
-Anakin

With Luke being jointly trained by Obi and Yoda.

Nowhere in there does Mace fit. He comes from an entirely different master/apprentice line altogether.

Anakin is the most potent force user ever. Period. That doesnt mean he always wins, it just means he has (By far) the most potential. Weve not seen him live up to his potential in any way (except maybe the pod-race), but we probably will in Ep3.

I dont think Luke really is strong at all. His "strength" lay in his ability to bring out the good in the chosen one. Little more than that.

Also, I dont think the Emperor is very strong at all either. This is just my opinion. I beleive he has a mastery over the darkside that allows him to have some kind of psychological hold on his apprentices. Like an abusive parent.

His "strength" lies in his unique ability to get others to do things for him.

But all in all, Anakin is the most powerful. Period. Remember, he was using the force as a 9 year old, with no training at all. Luke was not able to use the force untrained, at twice that age. Plus, Anakin was conceived by midichlorians themselves.

Hope that helps.

 

Also, I dont think the Emperor is very strong at all either

You forget thAt's the same guy who deceive the Jedi Council, secretly squemed to become Supreme Chancelor, start a full scale war, destroy the Jedi and the Republic, self proclame himself Emperor AND was able to turn the CHOSEN ONE to the darkside.
I'd said he IS quite powerfull.

He only lost at the end, because of his overconfidence.

 

I'd disagree with the comment about Luke not being powerful.

With very little training from Yoda, and even less from Obi-Wan, he's able to get to the level where he can hold his own against Darth Vader in his first ever duel. That shows some serious ability to me.

 

Once more I will agree with Ktulu_Terumo.

 

You guys misunderstood.

Theres a difference between potential and actual power. We certainly saw that in AOTC. Just because one has more midichlorians, and potential, does not mean he wins the battle, does it?

Luke probably had a ton of potential but wasnt very powerful. Much like AOTC Anakin. Why? Well, Anakin was certainly more naturally powerful than he. He used the force, sans any training, as a kid. Luke was only trained for, what, a couple of months, tops. Probably not even that much. Luke was a victim of circumstance. He probably would have grown up one of the greatest jedi ever, but lacked the priviledge of a lifetime of training, that he would have got had he lived 20 or 30 years earlier.

His main power, as Yoda knew, and as the Emperor knew, was in his potential to be able to turn the chosen one back to the lightside.

Luke couldnt defeat the Emperor. Only the Chosen One could. But he couldnt do that, without the interferecne of his son, Luke.



Now on to the Emperor.

"You forget thAt's the same guy who deceive the Jedi Council, secretly squemed to become Supreme Chancelor, start a full scale war, destroy the Jedi and the Republic, self proclame himself Emperor AND was able to turn the CHOSEN ONE to the darkside.

Not one thing you mentioned above requires any power in the force to do.

-"deceive the Jedi Council" -- Maybe they dont sense him because hes so weak.

- "secretly squemed to become Supreme Chancelor" -- Any shmo with a cunning mind can do that.

-"start a full scale war"-- Ditto.

-"destroy the Jedi and the Republic"-- Again, youre missing the meaning of the Weenie's words. Both of these things are done by OTHERS. The Weenie seriously doubts that the Emperor personally kills a single jedi. See below for further explanation.

-"self proclame himself Emperor AND was able to turn the CHOSEN ONE to the darkside" -- This is what Im saying. The emperor is probably not all that powerful in reality. But he is formidable, not for his fearsome skills on the battlefield, hes no warrior; But he is "powerful" in that he has a special ability to corrupt minds. He is very good at manipulating so that he does not ever have to get his own hands dirty.

His "power" lies in the ability to get others to do stuff for him. And in that case, he certainly can be called very powerful.

Get it? There was no "power" required for any of the emperor's accomplishments you listed. All were the result of a cunning mind. Thats his power.

 

Chain of Command in Jedi, eh?



The Jedi are not Ranked in power, nor in strength in the Force. This is supported by the way of the Jedi lifestyle, and how individuals in the Order focus on certain abilities and aspects (aside from Basic training, of course).

True, Yoda is a very powerful and wise Jedi, as is Mace. But who is to say that Yoda is better than Luminara Unduli in healing and advice? Who is to state that Mace is a better mediator of conflicts that Depa Billaba?

In fact, Jedi aren't even based on power- they reject it as a way to corrupt the mind and pure thought of idea. Ever wonder why they don't wear jewelery or where fancy clothes? They don't want prestige among the community. They want to be "normal" in a humble sense of kindness.

I'm sure you could Rank Jedi on their sheer ability of lightsaber combat, but then again- does that make a Jedi powerful? Remember, "war does not make one great".


Now at the time of Episode II, the Jedi were into politics and the results thereof- what about the most intelligent Jedi in that area?


In any event, the Jedi aren't "Ranked". They are protectors, not celebrities. They are unsung heroes, not famous idols.




But it wouldn't hurt to put a Rank on them here in the JC- in fact, it brings a bit of debate into the topic.







Ken Kenobi- And you have a nice day

 

Nice. Youre right, of course. I guess its just the darkside in all of us. We have to bring everything back to power.

We'll rank them with fighting skills as the criteria, then. It wouldnt do much good to rank them in order of # of midichlorians or something, since that doesnt necessarily mean anything as far as a jedi and his strength in the force goes.

Combat is the only clear-cut, tangible criteria we, as mere observers, could hope to "rank" on, right?

 

Yeah, and even that can be a bit vague at times.

I agree that there is a world of difference between potential and actual power.

 

Please let me clarify: I used the term "chain of command" because at the time I didn't know how else to term it. I did not mean that Yoda was Windu's boss and Windu was Qui-Gon's boss. I meant, it seems, and I say SEEMS that Yoda is the "most powerful" therefore some sort of "leader." But, just the name "Jedi Council" means that they're all equal...

Damn it. I confused even myself. Anyway, I hope you guys see what I am trying to say.

Roddy

 

RP: I think I get the point of what you mean.


Ken Kenobi- And you have a nice day

 

Okay, gotcha.

Bonus points for a cool username too, even if ol' Rodimus did overdo the angst sometimes.

 

"Bonus points for a cool username too, even if ol' Rodimus did overdo the angst sometimes."

Thanks. Now, I have another question: Is Sidious more powerful than Yoda?

Roddy

 

Weeniesa no tink so...

The Weenie takes a lot of abuse over his veiwpoint on this matter, but the second post in this thread will reveal his opinion on this issue.

EDIT: Which, BTW, is no.