PT The Characters of the PT

I think the characterisation of the OT is forced, shallow, and dated...ex.Tarkin.

 

While the main characters are arguably lacking that same spark as the OT, the PT is full of side characters that rival the best of the OT.

Watto, Sebulba, Jar Jar, Boss Nass, Dexter, Cliegg, Nute, Jango.

These guys are full of character and personality. Watto and Dex in particular I feel could be taken out of Phantom Menace and dropped in any of the movies (maybe not TESB) and they'd fit right in no probs.

 

I think the interactions between Anakin and Padme were the weakest points of the PT. I do not think they had much chemistry which was not helped by the dialogue. Other then that, I had no real issues to be honest other then what I have posted on previous topis before

 

I don´t want to get involved in this pointless discussion about subjective opinions so I´ll just put my subjective opinion here. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padmé or Shmi Skywalker aren´t any less relatable, engaging and intersesting characters than Luke, Leia, Han or Lando.

 

That's like saying Michael Jordan seems much better at basketball than baseball.

 

Generally, I enjoy the PT characters quite a bit more than the OT characters.

I may wrong the OT characters a bit in this case, but they're just too self-explanatory for my taste. Luke is the (ideal) hero, Han is the rogue (hero) and Leia is the (feisty) princess. I don't see them changing roles in any significant way. For instance, over three films, it's very hard for me to find moments where Han was (self-admittedly) weak. The PT characters, on the other hand, are a lot more .... diverse(?). When I think of Obi-Wan, for example, I see a strict teacher, a loyal knight and a laid-back friend with a fine sense of humour...it's much harder for me, fortunately, to put him into a clear "category". I also still think that the character of Padmé/Amidala was a tremendous success in TPM, because in spite of all the royality, the pomp and her apparant resolve, you could still detect vulnerabilty and despair in her eyes.




There is a hidden and subdued depth to the PT characters that can only be enjoyed when you're invested, when you bought into it - which is something the movies probably didn't achieve with parts of the audience. That said, I do think the PT could have benefitted from a bit more interaction between the three main characters. TPM had a completely different structrue and they were rather separat in ROTS as well, so AOTC was really the only one where we got to see them doing Jedi business, fighting side-by-side etc. That's a bit absent otherwise.

I still think it kind of fits the trilogy's tone. They're lives are all about the be destroyed and it just .... happens. If they had been given a chance to sit together and solve the galaxy's problems, maybe it would have saved them from doom. They didn't have the chance because the circumstances wouldn't allow it. They were "scattered across the galaxy", only to witness the galaxy's collapse from different places and come together for the ultimate result.

 

Love this post! Why can't we "Like" things more than once?

 

Indeed. This feature is desperately needed for Samnz's posts in particular.

I would just like to add to those wonderful observations, a couple of points:

1) The prequel characters do have a a bit more shading to them (IMO). Samnz came up with a good example with Obi-Wan. Their natures are just that bit more concealed. Amidala's constant costume changes in TPM could allude to this regal intermixing.

2) I like how Dex tells Obi-Wan that the Kaminoans "keep to themselves". This could actually be applied to all of the PT characters in a way. They're not always the most cuddly or expressive bunch and seem to operate with a degree of guardedness and caution. Overlooking the animated "alien" characters -- Watto, Jar Jar, Dex, et al. -- the humans tend to convey a more ossified sensibility. It is (as others have pointed out) the era of the Galactic Republic ("a more civilized age"), after all. Amidala, again, symbolically encapsulates this tactical aloofness, perhaps.

And, okay, one more...

3) Great reading that the characters are "scattered" in the PT. Think of Order 66. They're all broken up and caught unaware. Evil divides them via division: division/diversion. They tragically fail to understand what is going on, what is happening in the lives and minds of each other. "Geonosis is less than a parsec away." So close, yet so far. The films poetically depict their ultimate disintegration. Or, at least, you can see it that way, if you please.

 

I don't think think PT characterization is perfect, but I do think the level of camaraderie we saw in it is just the right amount for the tragic atmosphere it was going for. I'm not interested in seeing Anakin, Obi-Wan, etc. paling around too much or exchanging too many Han-style zingers. If I want the OT dynamic, I'll watch the OT.

And anyways, I'd say the fabled OT camaraderie might be a bit over-stated anyway. Luke and Han have each others backs, but post-ANH the two characters don't even interact all that much. Han/Leia is all about the bicker flirt--entertaining at times, but for me more of a standard action film romance than anything that speaks of super genuine character interaction. Chewie might be the best example of this warm-hearted OT spirit of friendship, and he's a doggie ape man who can't talk.

 

I hate how people blame the actors for the crappy dialogue. I mean, Hayden Christiansen is a good actor. I like him in his other movies. It's just bad writing, editing, and directing that makes him appear bad. If you look at some behind the scenes for Episode II, there are some takes where Hayden did an excellent job, but George decided to use the less appealing takes.

 

Looking at the OT cast without blinding nostalgia and with the PT "critic" eye:

WARNING: Sarcasm and Hyperbole from this point foward.

Luke is the ultimate boy scout: Blond, babyfaced, naive... I don't think anyone actually feared Luke was going to turn to the dark side in RoTJ. There was no real shade of darkness/anger to him.

Leia is a whiny miss Perfect who'd get tantrums like a baby.

And Han was a one dimensional illusion of a complex bad boy/rebel character. He was the perfect pretty boy, and made no change or had any serious concequenses for his pirate lifestyle. He just became a pansy all of a sudden in TESB/RoTJ.

 

I actually FAVOR the PT characterization over the OT.

Yes I've enjoyed deeply the Yoda/Luke and Vader/Luke/Emperor interactions in the OT. I have developed a fondness for the 'Big 3' moments. But I have instantaneously fallen IN LOVE WITH the Obi-Wan/Anakin multidimensional brother-brother/ father-son/ mentor-student friendship. And seeing Palpatine egging on Anakin is like swallowing honey-you can never have enough of its sweet deliciousness.The underlying tensions, deceptions and two-fold intentions of the PT relationships makes them more compelling to me than the straight-forward OT ones. I could root for Luke, Leia and Han, yes. But I've became emotionally invested in Anakin, Mace, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Palpatine's fates by ROTS to an extent I've rarely felt before regarding any fictional character. Their PT arcs really got to me.

Where I think the PT could have done better is in the Padmé/Anakin and Padmé/Obi-Wan relationships. I've liked the idea and genre of Padmé/Anakin, but I thought there was too much 'jumps' in their romantic execution. I would have liked to see a deeper exploration of their bond in TPM and them keeping contact between TPM and AOTC. Maybe Anakin and Padmé could have been shown secretly(from Anakin's side) exchanging letters...the start of AOTC would have them being penpals and 'skype friends' via their commlinks. Perhaps there could have been a few more scenes depicting Padmé's growing feelings for Anakin and the both of them interacting with Padmé's family. As far as Obi-Wan and Padmé are concerned, I would have liked to see deeper trust and friendship between them. More scenes showing Anakin, Padmé and Obi-Wan as a trio, albeit a different kind of trio than the OT big 3, would have been nice.

 

You might have prefaced those comments with a disclaimer cautioning "sarcasm and hyperbole", but I can actually see some people holding those opinions; indeed, have seen those opinions expressed before.

I know I've actually called out Luke's character arc before, on the basis that he's a good character who stays good. He contends with darkness, but he never falls. He remains the proverbially good egg.

Contrast Luke with Anakin: starts good, turns evil, finds something within himself and returns to the light. From a certain point-of-view, his is a much more interesting journey, made all the more impressive as his decline (and return) is foregrounded against a grand political story involving clones, secret marriages, treason against trusted mentors, and the assorted like.

Luke's story is more like a folk tale. It has a beautiful simplicity about it. It's beautifully contained. Anakin's story is more sprawling, more muddied-up, more about compromise, confusion, and regret. More human in a way.

But Star Wars is about both. About the big and the small, fear and hope, tyranny and rebellion. Sometimes, I find it very sad when the trilogies are pitted against each other, or one half denied. In my mind, it's only really symphonic when you embrace both trilogies, and all six parts. But to each, their own.

 

Agreed. To me, the OT was a simpler, contained story where the characters can afford to skimp on the moral complexity/depth to focus on helping to progress the story. That's not to say they weren't still entertaining or interesting, but their motives remain largely unchanged (good characters stayed good, bad characters were villainous), and the sides were very clearly defined (Good Rebels vs Evil Empire).

The PT on the other hand, had so much going on that it was difficult to balance both character and story development. I think Lucas sacrificed the former to serve the latter (as Anakinfan pointed out). Which is a shame, because the PT characters hinted at a lot of potential for debate because all the characters had very different affiliations and subtler motives. There were a lot of opportunities to compare and contrast the various personalities/cultures/morals for debate, but we never got to see much of them because the PT characters were too busy running around to get from one plot point to another. The PT was too crowded with interesting characters, and Lucas made the further mistake of separating the main three, making it difficult to see how they related to each other. Of course, TCW then came to the rescue by adding additional (and markedly less interesting) characters who hogged up all the screentime, making it even more impossible for the trio to spend any time together. WASTE.

I think PT characterisations are far from superficial or shallow, but you really have to read between the lines and do a bit of work (i.e head to the EU or fanfic) to get to the depths. I guess you shouldn't have to do all that if the storyteller was competent to begin with, but darn it, I love these characters too much.

 

I think that was intentional and not a sign of incompetence.**

I've said it before but a good analogy would be:
PT=THX 1138 (you really have to read between the lines and do a bit of work)
OT=american Graffiti (opposite of that)

.Which is why i think all this endless comparing between the 2 trilogies is completely pointless....
They were made to be different in many ways and that is not a flaw of any of the 2.


** I think if the PT was made exactly the same but by Kubrick, people would praise it for being a masterpiece just like ASO:2001!

 

Okay then I guess this is a bad time to say I don't get the fuss about Kubrick and I hated 2001.

....Yes, that was my point. The two trilogies take completely different tones and feature different characterisations for different purposes.

Nonetheless, this does not excuse the need to flesh out some of the important characters. I don't mind doing the extra work, but as a storyteller, he really should be able to make us understand/become invested in the main characters at least, without us having to turn to outside sources. Like Anakinfan pointed out, his idea of major character building is just to tell us 'Oh they're friends, but you don't know why because their relationship progressed off screen'. That's not a big deal when it's between minor characters, but the Obi Wan/Anakin/Padme dynamic is crucial to the entire saga, and they barely spend any time together. Besides for the large chunk devoted to the Anakin and Padme romance, we never see how Anakin and Obi Wan's relationship was wrought, or how Obi Wan and Padme friendship came about. That, to me, is a flaw in the storytelling.

 

I think it would have been better to see Anakin as being older in TPM, played by Hayden as well. By having him as a child in the first one makes his story seem a little rushed for me, I always envisioned that we would have seen Vader (in costume) for the last half at least of ROTS hunting Jedi. I also think it could have given more screen time to the Obi / Anakin / Padme dynamic too.

But in terms of characters in TPM I like the relationship between Qui Gon and Obi Wan, this pays off in the final scenes of the duel when Obi Wan is raging.

Great post. Building characters and their relationships I think is a very important part of any film to make you invested in what happens. The core relationship of Anakin / Obi Wan / Padme and also Palpatines outside influence is the glue of the whole story and ultimately is what the downfall of Anakin is relying on. As good as ROTS is, the fall of Anakin seems rushed and I feel in part is down to making Anakin a kid in the first one.

But in ROTS some of the stongest scenes (of the whole saga too) are those between Anakin and Palpatine, I really liked the dialogue and the subtle way that Palpatine was twisitng Anakins mind.

 

Absolutely, Palpatine's manipulation was so devastatingly subtle, and I'm super glad it worked. It made for very memorable scenes between the two characters (and gave both actors a chance to show off their acting). I only wished that the same attention to detail was given to Obi Wan-Anakin teaching relationship. Of course it's partially because I can never get enough of Obi Wan, but I would have liked to see more scenes where Obi Wan and Palpatine play tug-of-war, and to give us the opportunity to compare and contrast their teaching styles. People keep pulling the "Obi wan was a bad teacher so Anakin had to turn to Palpatine" card, but I don't see enough teaching scenes between the Jedi to even draw comparisons. In the EU books and movie novelisations we do get more of that, as well as gain insight into how Palpatine manipulated the other two to help orchestrate Anakin's fall. And I would have liked to see his absolute hatred for Obi Wan go beyond a mere hint (I'm sure Sidious tried very hard to kill him behind the scenes).


I didn't mind Anakin's childhood, I could see the point of setting him up as a sweet-natured kid to emphasise the tragedy of Vader. But I felt we spent a lot of time establishing the podrace stakes, naboo...etc so that in TPM there was barely any time for character interactions. Again, this goes back to my claim about cramming too much into one movie. Since Obi Wan and Padme knew each other long before they met Anakin, I thought it was prime opportunity to set up that friendship before Tatooine (like how Luke and Han start bickering long before Leia joins in). The OT has multiple scenes where the trio get little moments that mean a lot with each other, and I reckon that went a long way with characterisation.

I'm sorry, I think I might have misunderstood you somewhere.

Not quite sure what the question marks mean, but sure that's why I said besides the Anakin-Padme romance (I don't know how that's redundant? It's his reason for falling). You're listing down the moments where a friendship was assumed between Obi-Wan and Padme, but I think this goes back to Anakinfan's assertion that we are only told that they are friends. I doubt the two have even had a conversation together outside of their duties ("we're here to protect you!", "Where's Anakin?"). What about when Obi Wan lost his master protecting her planet? Did Padme comfort/apologise/feel guilty? Did Obi Wan know of their relationship? How did he feel? Did Padme know Obi Wan knew? What did Anakin learn from Obi-Wan (and vice versa)? When did the two (any two) learn to trust and respect each other? Why was Anakin knighted? Did Obi Wan recommend him? How did that revelation go? When did they all get over Qui Gon's death (a very pivotal and shared moment I think, since all three knew him and spent a lot of time with him).
I feel these are important questions I would have liked answered, and they're the more obvious ones I think. Of course you don't have to agree, and if you're completely satisfied with what you got, then okay. But they would have helped me a great deal in situating all their relationships and histories with each other, and the easiest way for me to care about characters is to see how they all cared for other characters. I get that from the EU, but just sayin', some canon confirmation would be nice.

I was willing to overlook that problem in the prequels (limited screentime, story more important...), but after 6 years of a TV show meant to "expand on the prequels" and I'm still not getting any answers, I think my frustration is not unreasonable. I still don't know the main characters as well as I'd like, but on the other hand, I can tell you everything about Ahsoka Tano - whose overwhelming importance in the movies clearly justified the excessive details [read: sarcasm] - from miraculous adoption to martyr exit.

 

You mention the Anakin / Obi Wan relationship, it was non-existent in TPM due to Anakain being a child and the inclusion of Qui Gon. Then I felt they were playing catch up in the second one and they split them up for that one.

Clearly the point of that is that they were trying to create a connection and the subsequent romance between Anakin and Padme, which is obviously the main reason why he ended up turning to the dark side. But I think, (for the first 2 films at least), they neglected 2 other key character / relationship components of his fall, which are Anakins relationships with Obi Wan and Palpatine.

I think theres lot to admire that the PT tried to cram in, to broaden the SW universe so to speak. But ultimately I think that in the end it left too much to do in the final film and it affected the main dynamic - which is the demise of Anakin and his relationship with Obi Wan, Padme and Palpatine which triggered it.

 

Hmm yes I do see what you mean. Perhaps it was a bit of a tall order to fit a boy's growth and fall into 3 movies. Anakin does seem to have too many attachments - no wonder the poor thing's confused. There should be prequels to the prequels, really. Then we can get all the first meetings sorted so when Episode I starts Anakin is grown already (if we still keep the Anakin as a kid route). Or just have Obi Wan be the one to find him; it would be more streamlined! Idk, as part of the PT generation, I never had the time to ponder about Obi Wan's quote in ANH about his first meeting with Anakin (From what I can gather, most people thought he was mostly grown by then). But I do love some Qui Gon so I can't regret his presence (attachments)!

There's plenty to love in ROTS; I think they tried hard to tie up all the loose ends. They finally tried to inject some healthy affection into the Obi Wan/Anakin bond, and play on Palpatine, and get Padme and Obi Wan together. But those scenes were super-brief and not enough time for us to get invested. As a result, yeah - the emotional impact of Anakin's fall was weakened because the emotional foundation wasn't as solid in the first 2 films.

 

Nothing wrong with Qui Gon at all IMO