THE CHOICE: Will Anakin have the chance to kill Palps? * No Spoilers! *

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, Apr 6, 2004.

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  1. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I realize there has been a number of topics on Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, when he first becomes Darth Vader, etc.

    If this is too redundant, feel free to kill this thread Windy. ;)

    The question is, do you think Anakin will have a chance to do away with Palpatine before he turns to the Dark Side?

    I was reading a thread where someone thought that Anakin essentially HAD to turn to the Dark Side before Balance could be restored to the Force.

    I was thinking that Anakin's choice would have much more impact if he had had the chance to "end this madness" and decided to go DS and join Palpatine.

    There's obviously a major theme of free will, choice and destiny running through SW - Mace and Yoda keep telling Obi-Wan, "you must have faith that Anakin will choose the right path".

    Well, if he doesn't really have a choice in turning to the DS b/c he's in pain or otherwise coerced, or that he HAD to turn before Balance is restored, his redemption doesn't have as much impact in the end.

    That could be one way Lucas surprises the fans for Episode III as well.

    We've all seen the OT 8,000 times - imagine watching Episode III and being shown that all of the suffering and evil of the Empire in the OT didn't have to happen, if Anakin had just resisted temptation?

    What do you think?
  2. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Interesting.

    I think it's more than possible that Anakin chooses the path to the DS because he believes it will be better for all in the end.... there is a quote from Hayden where he says that Anakin thinks he's doing what is "right." I suppose the definition of "right" (even Anakin's "right") is up for debate, but it would be interesting if he was given the opportunity to off Palps but chooses to turn instead. It's ironic that his "good intentions" end up screwing over not only himself but the whole Galaxy.... his turn away from being "the chosen one" (by logical accounts) in fact results in him actually being "the chosen one" in the end... and really doing what's right this time.
  3. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Good points.

    It could be that Anakin has the chance to kill Palpatine, but Palps offers him POWER - both personal power, in that he would be Palps' right-hand man, and also learn the ways of the Sith, but political power - the power to rid the galaxy of the "greed" and "corruption" that has destroyed it.

    Then Anakin's choice would be wrong on 2 counts: joining the Sith is a bad move obviously, and Palpatine's methods of ridding the galaxy of greed and corruption leave much to be desired. ;)
  4. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I like this idea. It would be a nice backstory for the ROTJ throne room...when Vader is looking back and forth between his dying son and Palps, he might be thinking "Maybe this time I should kill him. The last time I had a chance was 20 years ago, I'm not going to miss out again."
  5. MYMUTHAZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2001
    star 3
    perhaps he has a choice between killing palps(not sidious) or dooku. he sees dooku trying to take down palps, in order to be the new sith master. of course dooku will tell anakin palps is the evil one and they have to destroy him. but anakin thinks he's trying to kill palps, the "good guy". he takes on dooku, finally defeting him when he taps into his anger, thus going down the dark path. then palps reveals himself as a sith. anakin joins him at that point. he's totally high off his anger. palps explains it was his anger that made him able to defeat dooku this time.
    hope that wasn't too rambley. it makes sense in my head?
  6. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    i believe and have always believed that anakin will have a distinct choice to make, be it when sidious is fighting with yoda, mace, or anyone really.....


    i think anakin will have a decision to make, end the sith order forever or give onto his hate and fight for power....and since we know a little about episode III, we all know what he chooses. But if Lucas and co. does it well enough, we will all be sitting in the theatre hoping he chooses the right path just like mace and yoda always say he must
  7. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Exactly, Windu. When I saw Passion of the Christ, I kept thinking all along "OK, someone is going to step in and save this guy, they're not really going to kill him, are they?" I knew it would be a bad ending, but I still kept rooting for it not to happen. I'm hoping III is like that...even though we know Anakin will turn bad, we still believe something will happen to make him choose the good, and then we are hit hard when he finally makes that wrong decision.
  8. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Up. Let the discussion widen!
  9. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I think Anakin has an endless number of chances to kill Palps. Certainly from AOTC we know he is alone with him much of the time. But the trust and intimacy they share probably means Anakin would never even consider killing him. The thought probably doesn't cross his mind until years later, when he starts to have thoughts of overthrowing his Master. And we don't know for sure that he even thinks of stealing power until TESB when he tries to get Luke to help him.

    Anakin believes he is fighting for justice and order his entire life, so I can't imagine he would ever want to kill Palpatine, the preserver of that justice and order in his mind. It is only his love for his son that finally changes his mind.

  10. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    If Anakin is presented with the opprotunity to kill Palpatine, knowing that he is the Sith Lord, it would make for a very interesting scene. As to whether or not it could stop the Sith and restor balance at that moment would all depend on Anakin's state of mind at the time. Remeber that in ROTJ when Luke is given the opprotunity to kill him, Palpatine tells him that if he gives into his hate and impulses that it will turn him to the darkside, and Anakin is already much further down that path than Luke ever was. How could Anakin be given this choice nad not feel some degree of hatered towards the man, and on top of that there is also the betrayal that he would feel, that Luke didn't have to deal with. Anakin would essentialy be confronted with the possibility of killing Palpatine and thereby being consumed by the darkside, or joining him. No win situation.
  11. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    The question is, do you think Anakin will have a chance to do away with Palpatine before he turns to the Dark Side?

    Ah ha! This goes back to some old debates I had with MeBeJedi. I felt Anakin had to turn to the dark side so he could infiltrate it, so to speak, and gain both enough of Palpy's trust and enough dark side power to eventually be able to succeed at killing Palpy. Whether Anakin was just being guided by destiny or if he was consciously making that choice would be an interesting debate. MBJ, on the other hand, thought that destiny had originally planned for Anakin to become the most powerful Jedi, powerful enough to kill Dooku and Palpy, without ever turning to the dark side. Padawan Obi-Wan took down a Sith who was on his level, and maybe Anakin was meant to be on the level of those two. In short, Anakin "failed" when he fell to the dark side, but destiny ended up giving him a second chance anyway.

    If Anakin has the opportunity to kill Palpatine after finding out he's a Sith, I doubt he would take it. For all we know, Anakin thinks the Sith are heroes at that point, if the Jedi do enough to alienate him (and his marriage).
  12. hew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 1999
    star 4
    "MBJ, on the other hand, thought that destiny had originally planned for Anakin to become the most powerful Jedi, powerful enough to kill Dooku and Palpy, without ever turning to the dark side. Padawan Obi-Wan took down a Sith who was on his level, and maybe Anakin was meant to be on the level of those two. In short, Anakin "failed" when he fell to the dark side, but destiny ended up giving him a second chance anyway."

    For what it's worth, I agree with MBJ. :p
  13. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I think that the will of the Force was that Anakin would fall to the Dark Side in order to eliminate the imbalance of the Light Side. At the same time, the Force had a long term plan to eliminate the rule of the Dark Side by having Vader kill Palpatine.

    My only question...after ROTJ, there is now an imbalance towards the Light Side, as the Sith have been destroyed. How will the Force handle that?
  14. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    storm, IIRC, Lucas has said that it is the Sith that cause the imbalance - so when Vader kills Palps and redeems himself, the # of Sith in the GFFA = 0, therefore Balance is achieved.

    The Sith are described as a cancer.

    Actually, I recall those discussions with DLM and MeBe - and MeBe always had great quotes to paste in. ;)

    And, for what it's worth, I agree with MeBe.

    I hope Anakin has a choice - if he is "forced" to turn to the Dark Side, or if destiny forces his hand, or he had to turn to kill Palps, it would weaken his redemption.

    If everything HAD to happen the way it did, then what's the big fuss about Vader's redemption? He could have stayed DS or died, as long as Palps was killed.
  15. Darth_Sacrilicious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2003
    star 2
    If everything HAD to happen the way it did, then what's the big fuss about Vader's redemption? He could have stayed DS or died, as long as Palps was killed.
    very good point. that would makes it more as that was going to happen anyways, rather than anakin coming back. i keep thinking about how surprised i was as a kid when that happened, and i think when anakin turns, the scene has to be as dramatic as that and as surprising, even though we know that it will happen.
    i think that if anakin does have a chance to kill palps, that that would have to be the scene where he turns to the darkside, like he goes to do so and then is talked out of it. or else he's watching palps kill someone and has a free shot to strike him down to stop it, but doesn't.
  16. IceGambit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 1
    I think it's a likely possibility is that Anakin is blackmailed into joining Palps. Perhaps Palps will threaten his kids? In ROTJ Ben tells Luke: "The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him." Of course, the OT seems to indicate that only Yoda was aware of Leia, so perhaps Palps threatening Padme or baby Luke (all operating on the assumption that the twins will be in Ep. III)?
  17. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    it's so obvious that i didn;t think of it ;)

    great idea - the trouble is nailing down the particulars of why ani at one point will see a reason to kill palps, and what causes him to not only decide against this, but also to JOIN with palpy

    i don;t see blackmail as an option - just doesn't lend itself to a 20 year partnership

    but somethings gotta give to make this theory work...

    and it is a good idea... meditate on this, i will
  18. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    It could be that Palpatine asks Anakin to join the dark side and Obi-Wan asks him to stay away because the dark side is the wrong side. This could make Anakin hesitate. When he then chooses to side with Palpatine, there would be no doubt that he joined the Sith of his own free will.

    There's also the possibility of a scene similar to the one with Luke, Vader and Palpatine in ROTJ, which ends with Anakin killing Dooku and realising how much power the dark side gives him.
  19. Soothsayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 1999
    star 4
    I agree that this is a good idea.

    I like parallels in movies and this would create one. If Anakin was tortured at all he would understand what Luke was going through.

    And I also agree that I have no idea how this could be done to make Anakins turn into Vader one of free-will.

  20. Raz Zaphon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 4
    It has to be free will. No torture, not blackmail, just free will. And here's how: Greed, plain and simple. It was a big motif in Episode I, and it's going to come back in Episode III. Anikan will turn to the dark side simply so that he can become the most powerful Jedi. Anikan has always indulged his instincts. When he was a little boy he was pure, and innocent, and it was his nature to help people. But when grown up he has his own problems to deal with, and instead of helping other people he'll only end up helping himself, no matter what the cost. Will he have a chance to kill Palpatine? I don't think that's the point. Maybe there'll be a point where someone else is fighting him and Anikan has a chance to join in. It could be established that trying to kill Palpatine is folly. If the option is to join him or die, then he should have died, that is the right thing to do. However I don't think Palpatine will threaten to kill Anikan, because they're friends and will remain friends.
  21. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    It has to be free will. No torture, not blackmail, just free will. And here's how: Greed, plain and simple. It was a big motif in Episode I, and it's going to come back in Episode III. Anikan will turn to the dark side simply so that he can become the most powerful Jedi.

    I must disagree with these points. Yes, Anakin has to make a choice, but to say it's a choice only stemming from greed is looking at it very one dimensionally. That Palpy has been manipulating him the entire time is a huge factor, by the time Anakin figures it out, how much of a choice does he really have? Anakin is a morally ambiguous character, his turn to the Dark Side will likely be shrouded in doubt- hence Obi-Wan (probably) trying to turn him back in the Duel. If it were only greed that motivates Anakin we wouldn't have the pity for him that everyone (GL, RM, PH) says we'll feel towards him at the end. Hayden himself said: "Anakin/Darth does what he does because he believes he's doing it for the good of the universe."


    However I don't think Palpatine will threaten to kill Anikan, because they're friends and will remain friends.

    Friends?! They are not friends. GL has said it himself, there is no love lost between the Sith (specifically Vader and Sidious). There is always a plan to off the other one if the need arises. Look how quickly Vader offered Luke a chance to join him. There can only be two Sith, obviously he would have to get rid of Sidious. And Anakin has always been Palpatine's tool, his puppet from the get go. It's because Anakin is so powerful. If he outgrew is usefullness I'm sure Sidious would dispose of him before you can say Force Choke. He showed no loyalty to Dooku or Maul. This is absolutely no different. How powerful would it be if Anakin is bitter at Palpatine for bringing him "back to life" after the lava bath? He would revel in his powerful but also hate what he has become and the fact that once again he is a slave.
  22. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    good call rebelscum77 - he WILL be a slave again!
  23. Raz Zaphon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 4
    I must disagree with these points. Yes, Anakin has to make a choice, but to say it's a choice only stemming from greed is looking at it very one dimensionally. That Palpy has been manipulating him the entire time is a huge factor, by the time Anakin figures it out, how much of a choice does he really have? Anakin is a morally ambiguous character, his turn to the Dark Side will likely be shrouded in doubt- hence Obi-Wan (probably) trying to turn him back in the Duel. If it were only greed that motivates Anakin we wouldn't have the pity for him that everyone (GL, RM, PH) says we'll feel towards him at the end. Hayden himself said: "Anakin/Darth does what he does because he believes he's doing it for the good of the universe.

    I never said the only factor would be greed, I said it would be the main factor, Frankly if the main reason Anikan turns to the Dark Side is because he's simply a lot less smart than Palpatine, the themes in this saga will become tragically skewed. It's not like Darth Vader is going to wake up one morning, realise that he's the face of evil in the Galaxy, figure out that everything Palpatine has told him is a lie, and then say "Oh crap - Oh well, there's no turning back now". That's preposterous. Anikan won't be so much tricked into believing Palpatine's ways, it'll be more like he chooses to believe. Anikan/Vader will believe the way of the Sith is best for the Galaxy; that there are some people who are better than everyone else like himself and Palpatine that belong on top. I doubt that when push comes to shove Palpatine is going to hide his motives from Anikan. In the OT when Palpatine spurts lines about his supreme domination of the Galaxy Vader isn't saying "...but that's not what we discussed earlier". He succumbs to evil. I agree, he is a slave, but he got himself there.

    Friends?! They are not friends. GL has said it himself, there is no love lost between the Sith (specifically Vader and Sidious). There is always a plan to off the other one if the need arises. Look how quickly Vader offered Luke a chance to join him. There can only be two Sith, obviously he would have to get rid of Sidious. And Anakin has always been Palpatine's tool, his puppet from the get go. It's because Anakin is so powerful. If he outgrew is usefullness I'm sure Sidious would dispose of him before you can say Force Choke. He showed no loyalty to Dooku or Maul. This is absolutely no different.


    EMPEROR
    "Rise, my friend"

    Would Palpatine replace Vader if he found a better apprentice? All signs point to yes. Would Vader try to overthrow the Emperor if he could find an apprentice to help him to so? All signs point to yes. So would they off each other at the first chance? Yes. The oT shows us this is true. That is how the Sith operate, yet that doesn't mean they don't have a mutual respect for each other. They need each other, Palpatine needs Vader to do the dirty laundry, and Vader needs Palpatine to learn how to become more powerful. The rule of two means that there has to be two of them; that means they're buddies until someone else comes along.

    How powerful would it be if Anakin is bitter at Palpatine for bringing him "back to life" after the lava bath? He would revel in his powerful but also hate what he has become and the fact that once again he is a slave.

    Portrayed that way it wouldn't be powerful at all. It means that Vader does evil deeds simply because Palpatine is forcing him to. In AotC Anikan said that he will learn to stop people from dying. I think he'll end up wanting to keep himself from dying, so he'll want to live. That seems to be what Palpatine wants too, to live forever. Way of the Sith.


  24. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Ah, much better explaination. I understand you now.
  25. Raz Zaphon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 4
    Wait a minute... No, no, no, this isn't right at all. You're supposed to debate with me until the bitter end, attacking my every point. This isn't any fun. Oh the hell with it, you're right, I just didn't make myself clear earlier.
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