PT The Chosen One Prophecy and did the Jedi ruin it?

That's never stated in the movies, and even if it was, you're taking it literally. The text is not saying emotion literally doesn't exist, but that a Jedi must not let emotion and passion affect their judgement, but only with peace and serenity can they help them reach a solution.

 

No its more like the Catholic Church influencing how God is percieved prior to the Reformation. The Church didnt influence how they as an organisation where percieved the governed how people viewed God. The Jedi are the same. To the non-Force using public, they are "The Force" they are everything they know of the Force and their views influence how others view the Force and whatis is and what dangers accompany it.

Really? Where is the proof that all Sith are bent on Galactic Domination and wish to control everyone?

I have yet to read the book, and certainly I will, but from what I've read Darth Plagueis was more interested in achieving immortality.

At its core essence, no. Allowing emotions to motivate how the Force is used is not wrong on its own.

He certainly isn't a Sith, but Luke certainly used his emotions to direct his use of the Force against Vader to good effect.

I'll redirect you to my first point in this post to answer this point.

"There is no emotion, there is peace...
There is no passion, there is serenity"

A True Jedi is devoid of emotion so as not to be tempted by the "Dark Side".

Not when it comes to :uke and his fight against Vader in ROTJ.

 

But emotion can be used tp positively effect your judgement. Love for others motivates you to make altruistic rather tha selfish decisions etc, whereas Love and Attachment are only seen as negative from a Jedi point of view due to the possibility of loss.

As a related point, Luke used his emotions (fear of losing Leia and anger at Vader for threatening it) to defeat Vader. Did that mean that he tapped into the Dark Side to defeat Vader, or were his emotions directing how he used the Light Side, or is there a Grey form of the Force that he tapped into?

 

There is nothing in the movies that support your argument. The fact is they are not the Force, nor do they represent it.

That's how the movies and TV series defines the Sith and their objectives. The Empire itself is proof of it. Sidious himself says they have a quest for power.

That doesn't matter anymore. And Plagueis was indeed interested in achieving immortality. That doesn't deny other interests.

It's not about allowing emotion, it's about what they actually do with the Force that is considered unnatural.

'Good effect' being...?

No Jedi is "devoid of emotion". They just don't let emotion affect them.

Really? Look where that almost got him.

They already are altruistic.

"Attatchment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life."

Yes, and that's pretty evident in the movie. However, he did not let his emotion affect his actions to the end and was able to calm himself and not kill Vader.

Another example of letting emotions and attachment affect judgement is in TESB, where Luke rushes to save Han and Leia and ends up being saved by them.

 

No they aren't the Force. But how do they not represent it? Is there any other group who explains what the Force is? Who else would an Force believer go to to understand the Force.

 

By not representing it. The Order was never made to represent the Force. The Force is not exclusive to them.

To whom?

Wherever he wants.

But he does that because he was a Sith and that's what Sith do. Being a senator once had nothing to do with his objectives.

The dark side is natural, it didn't cease to exist with the erradication of the Sith. But the Sith's exploitation of the Force is unnatural.

And almost killing him when he was unnarmed.

'Seem', not 'are'.

'Wholly good' being...?

The same can be said of the Jedi. They don't let their emotions control their actions.

Yes, it was.

Indeed, they were.

They don't have jurisdiction to do so. And Qui-Gon did what he could, he said so himself.

If Anakin didn't follow the rules of the Jedi, that's on him, not on them.

Anakin was the one who needed to let go. It's not the Jedi's role to go to a remote planet where they got no jurisdiction and free a particular slave.

 

Not going to start another quote-fest Alexrp.

The Jedi do represent the Force to the people of the Republic. They can't just ask anyone, as noone else states they understand the Force "like the Jedi do". To be honest, I think on sopme of this your disagreeing just to disagree, so I will agree to disagree with 90% of post.

The Jedi weren't compassionate when it came to Anakin's mother. (That was a typo on my part). As yo usay they didn't have jurisdiction to free her, but they could have bougth her freedom.

At the same time, stating that the Jedi had no jurisdiction to free slaves on Tatooine conversely shows that they had jurisdiction or authority in other matters in other areas of the galaxy in relation to previous posts in this thread.

The Jedi goal is the have action separated from emotion. "There is no emotion, thereis peace." (At least thats how I interpret it. Yours is obviously different.)

Again the movies only deal with 4 Sith, not all. 1 Sith set the agenda and the other 3 followed along. Thats all we know from the movies. If you look at the EU, we have a different picture and "Grey Jedi" on top of that.

 

There are other Force users, such as the Bardotta and the Nightsisters/brothers, but they are not the root cause of the balance and imbalance. The Sith are. It's pretty straight forward.

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars."

--George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars,” Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil."

--George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

"If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine Interview, 1999.

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999

"The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"It's not that they can't see the dark side coming, it's just that the dark side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the dark side grows."

--George Lucas, Starlog Interview, 2003.

"Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

 

^ This one is actually from the article "Flaws in a Good Heart" from the 1/20/02 edition of the Los Angeles Times.

 

Thanks again. As to Jedi and emotions...

"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all"

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.

But he was also carrying out Darth Bane's wishes.

 

Not all emotion, just certain kinds of emotion.

 

And not the emotions themselves, but the act of allowing the emotions to control one's actions.

 

If a Jedi feels anger, they must let go of that anger and not use it when they fight. If a Jedi holds on to the anger, that leads to the dark side. Anakin held onto his anger towards Dooku and that took him to a dark place. Luke was doing the same thing, but finally let go of it.

 

In my own personal canon, Anakin's part in the true prophecy was fathering Luke, but Luke goes on to do everything in the prophecy later on. Think about it, Luke has all the potential Anakin had before Mustafar, and was more or less an adult when he began his jedi training. Also, I believe the prophecy is actually he third point, not the other two, and if it is Luke fulfilled that, as he became a jedi with bonds and attachments that used those to stay on the light path, that used his emotions for good.

 

After watching the Clone Wars series especially the final episodes with Yoda visiting Dagobah, I think the balance of the Force has yet to be seen. ROTJ was not about balancing the Force, it was simply a removal of the Sith that were running the galaxy at the time.

But in Clone Wars, and other scenes, you can see Yoda discuss something greater than Sith vs Jedi. A connection with the living force and the cosmic force. It's something Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin eventually do with their continue spirit beyond the living force and into the cosmic force.

While current plot theories are just speculation, I think the balance in the force is something we will see in 7, 8, and 9. With Luke discovering a higher level of connection with the Force.

 

I always felt both sides were a little extreme.

Yes the Jedi preach control of their emotions, but to what extent? To the point where Yoda tells Anakin to not even shed a tear if those he loves die. "Mourn then, do not. Miss them, do not." According to Yoda, apparently, you're not allowed a moment to yourself to mourn the loss or else you're treading the Dark Side. Imagine my confusion when Yoda was heartbroken to see the carnage at the Jedi Temple and Padme's death. I remember thinking, "Wow, you're a damned hypocrite."

The Sith, on the other hand, preaches emotion beyond control. Angry? GET REALLY ANGRY! Lash out at everything using your hate.

True balance means accepting that emotions, such as mourning the loss of people you love, are very natural, but don't let it consume you.

 

The balance that was referred to in the prophecy of the chosen one was not a numbers game. Balance was not brought by "x" number of Jedi and "x" number of Sith existing simultaneously. The Force was out of balance because of the chaos Palpatine was creating while using the Dark Side to do it.

Anakin had a chance in ROTS to bring balance to the Force, he could have helped Mace kill Palpatine (Palpatine was the only Sith at the time), and it would have brought balance to the Force with all the Jedi still surviving. However, as we know he chose a different path, and there were consequences for that choice.

 

I think the Jedi Code is quite often taken out of context and misunderstood. It doesn't mean you should not show your emotions or have any passions, what it means is when you act as a Jedi, these are the codes you must follow and you cannot allow emotion, ignorance, passion etc to influence you. Only then will you be acting in unison with the Force. It is the same way we are expected to act (though women definitely have trouble with the emotion part) in our everyday lives. Can a police officer allow his emotions or passions to guide his decisions on the job? What about a bus driver? What about a CEO? The Jedi Code isn't a set of rules, it's a guide to know when you are in the right mental state to perform as a Jedi.

On the topic of the OP, "It was said that you would destroy the Sith....Bring balance to the Force." I always found it pretty straightforward, and it flows well in the PT. In TPM we learn that the Chosen One is said to bring balance. The Council only approves the training of the Chosen One after they confirm that the Sith have returned. In AOTC we learn that 10 years later Anakin hasn't disappointed as they still consider him to be the Chosen One, and are in fact depending on him fulfilling the prophecy. Then in ROTS we learn that the prophecy requires that Anakin destroy the Sith, which he had half-done at that point by killing Dooku.

I remember it once being put like this, the universe is in a negative balance, as people do mroe for themselves than others. It's in our nature. The Jedi counterbalance that negative energy by being completely devoted to others. The Sith disturb this balance by once more tilting the galaxy into the negative, as they are completely devoted to the dark side. Which is why in order to balance the Force, you must removed the Sith from the equation.

 

Yet to demand that emotion and passions not influence one at all is demanding one not be a natural sapient being, basically making life unlivable and pointless. The Code is very express in what it says. It does not say what you say it means, yet I see many Jedi supporters declare such to seemingly excuse their cold harshness while equally condemning the Sith for daring to acknowledge anger, passion, and desire for improvement, power. None of which are evil by themselves.

 

Are not those two mantras EU material?

 

But Luke doesn't kill Palpatine, Anakin does and as Obi-wan said, the Chosen One was to destroy the Sith and not join them.

A Jedi must not cling on to those that they care for. To not be so attached to that person, to the idea of that person, that they let it cloud their judgment. Obi-wan misses Qui-gon, but he moves on when he died. He doesn't let his death define him. Luke does the same thing when Obi-wan dies later on and again when his father dies. Anakin, on the other hand, never let go of Shmi's death. It defined him going forward and informed his decision to do whatever it took to prevent Padme from dying.

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the dark side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the dark side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the dark side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary

As to anger, as Yoda said, using emotions will feed the dark side of the Force. It is fueled by emotions and by using them, they will become lost.

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all and its because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

But they are when they enhance one's ability to use the Force. The Force surges within a Jedi when they use anger, and hate and fear.

VADER: "Ob-Wan has taught you well. You have controlled your fear...now release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me."

YODA:{/b] "Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

 

Read again what I said. The Code doesn't ask one to feel any emotion or passion, it asks not to allow them to control your actions as a Jedi. Again, which we do in everyday life. A police officer who is angry at his wife, cannot allow that anger to cause him to be violent towards others when he's on the job, the same way a Jedi cannot let thier anger guide them down the dark path. The dark side may not be evil, but the Sith obviously have evil plans that involve war and murder. If the Sith just stayed at home and played board games, I doubt the Jedi would bother them, no matter how evil they were.

Lastly I would say your argument is flawed as it is shown in the films, when Obi-Wan and Yoda show a great deal of emotion at the Jedi temple. But they don't allow those emotions to control their actions, and they plan accordingly.

 

The problem is that the films only give us a 30 year glimpse into a multiple millenia long sectarian conflict.

 

Don't need to, thanks.

 

Thing is, I don't take Lucas's words to heart like most fans. Regardless of what the jedi think, the prophecy is left open to interpretation in the films themselves, regardless of what Lucas says (especially considering he can be overwritten with the new films). Being as the sith or at the very least dark jedi still exist in the new films, he likely is wrong anyway. Anakin only fulfilled the prophecy if you believe the jedi in that bringing balance to the force means wiping out the sith and the darkside (which is false according to the Clone Wars series, which says too much light is a bad thing). I honestly believe balance calls for force users that have mental balance, being a machine like the jedi aspired to is by no means balance, nor is the total rejection of self-control the sith preached, true balance would be a jedi that felt passion and other emotions, yet reigned them in, used them to fuel his will and stay on the right path, that was Luke Skywalker.