Discussion The Chosen One, the Prophecy and the ST.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Immortiss, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Immortiss Force Ghost

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    Mar 10, 2013
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    Others on this forum have suggested I create this thread based on recent discussions. Controversy is not the intent of this thread and I'm hoping for thoughtful and considered discussion of these ideas specifically. How will Lucas and Arndt deal with these two concepts now that there is to be a ST? If this new trilogy is indeed a sequel then it is safe to believe that the above concepts will continue to be part of the story. It is interesting to note that Episode VII is a sequel to VI, but we last left the series at Episode III, which contained interesting, yet vague pieces of exposition, i.e., the possibility that the Jedi misread the Prophecy of the Chosen One, the Plagueis the Wise Legend, Qui-Gon's new Netherworld teachings and the theme of immortality in general.

    Additionally, we know that Lucas has been famous for significant story shifts, particularly if it helps to continue a story with an established narrative. The ST meets this criteria and we may be wise to expect shifting plot points and/or major plot twists.

    Last, I did receive Mod permission first before creating this thread in order to to make sure this would be both relevant and fresh. Thanks to @A Chorus of Disapproval and @Circular Logic for that piece of helpful advice.
  2. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Great topic @Immortiss! :)

    I think the prophecy will be further explored in the ST and I'm hoping we finally get an in-universe explanation about what it means exactly. An idea that I think has merit is that the Force has been in a continuous flux of balance and imbalance and therefore there have been many Chosen Ones throughout history (I would guess that they are separated by thousands of years so the Jedi may not have been aware of the other Chosen Ones existence.) I think Anakin did bring balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine but how long will that balance last? I think part of the story could be about the main antagonist threatening to throw the Force out of balance once more. How the Force would handle this threat is an interesting topic. Would Anakin be resurrected (not my first choice at all) or would it be up to his descendants to keep the balance with perhaps Anakin's guidance (this would be the way I'd go.) However they decide to incorporate the prophecy (if they do) I just hope it finally gives us a greater understanding of it.
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I'm wondering what part, if any, Mortis will play, given Lucas's involvement in it, and how it connects to The Prophesy.
  4. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    From the moment I first saw the Mortis arc I've thought that the Father was the Chosen One before Anakin and that he'd been keeping the balance for thousands of years. I like how his children represent the two sides of the Force and how the Son was threatening to overwhelm the Father and the Sister. To me it was an analogy of how the dark side was threatening to overwhelm the light side in the physical realm.
    Last edited by Darth Chiznuk, Aug 26, 2013
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  5. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    Nov 20, 2012
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    I want to know who wrote the damn thing, and if it goes with my theory that Mace and Yoda got hammered one night and wrote it themselves for giggles.
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  6. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    Hopefully the chosen one, the prophesy and the Mortis will not be mentioned or even hinted at in the ST.

    Abrams has said he wants to get back to the OT feel of Star Wars. Action and Adventure. I don't want to get bogged down in prophesy's and weird (poor conceived) force gods or whatever.
  7. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    I've argued before that if the prophecy is now indeed fulfilled and Anakin has brought balance to the Force (and this isn't retconned ;) ), then the Jedi's Force powers should now be far greater than they've been in the existing 6 movies.

    But maybe the balance hasn't been restored yet, and there's still more work to do with Anakin's ghost.
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Aug 26, 2013
  8. Corax78 Force Ghost

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    I would be willing to bet that we will get mentions of the prophecy, Mortis and what balance really means in the Sequel trilogy.
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  9. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    I certainly hope so.
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  10. EHT New Films Manager

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    Mentions of the prophecy and what balance really means, yes please. But Mortis, no thanks.
  11. Immortiss Force Ghost

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    I think the writers may take this route. It is an acceptable view of 'Balance'. What do you mean "How the Force would handle this threat"? Do you think another Immaculate Birth necessary, or some other divine Force intervention?

    The ST might be out of place without these components, and since Lucas wrote the treatments, you may want to prepare yourself.

    Interesting idea. It may be the case. If the Prophecy is fulfilled in VI the Saga may be observed to have a lack of symmetry and the writers run the risk of critics referring to the ST as just another sequel that has been tacked on, like an anomaly to the series.

    If the balance has not been restored and Anakin only redeemed himself would we need another Chosen One or do we keep Anakin? The fact that Anakin murdered Tuskens, Younglings and nearly all the adult Jedi does not sit well with me as his actions contradict what I would deem criteria for a Chosen One. The Jedi wanting to cut down the Chosen One at the end seems very out of place. It irks me. It doesn't seem enough to have destroyed Palpatine, saved his only own Son, when quite clearly saved himself from doom at the hands of Palpatine, to be glorified by the Force. Perhaps Anakin returns, like the Messiah, or perhaps there is another.

    Agreed.

    While I agree with you on Mortis, @Darth Chiznuk has made interesting observations about that story arc. However, I would prefer to stay within the films for explanations and not have to seek out Clone Wars episodes.
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  12. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
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    Maybe. Though them being present int he PT and the Clone Wars doesn't mean the will be a focus of the ST, and I would hope (given Abrams comments about bringing back the OT feel of Star Wars) they'll stay away from that kind stuff. ANd even if they are present, doesn't mean I have to like that they are present and I can hope they aren't.
  13. LunarMoth Force Ghost

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    Nov 27, 2012
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    I think the Prophecy will be mentioned in the form of a question.....

    "I thought balance was restored to the Force with fullfulment of The Prophcey?"

    "It was, however, evil finds a way. It is the way of things. But, this time was can stop it for good."
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  14. TheTwinSuns Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 26, 2013
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    I think a major theme in the sequel trilogy will be that evil never ends. "We just have to stop it every time it returns" or something of that nature.
  15. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    The prophecy, for as far as we know it based on the movies, held that a chosen one conceived by the Force would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. Whever else Anakin does doesn't pertain to the prophecy, so he can murder lots of Jedi but still fulfill the prophecy at the end, as far as I see it.

    Only Anakin is conceived by the Force (So far, anyway. I doubt they'll introduce a second one like that.) so that's clearly Anakin. Based on Lucas' statements, we take it that Anakin balances the Force by destroying the Sith, but I suppose that can be retconned (e.g., "Anakin destroyed the Sith years ago! So why hasn't the Force balanced itself out yet?").

    I'm just saying that, since AOTC established that the Jedi's powers are diminshed because of the increased dark side, we never (in the existing 6-movie series) see the full powers of the Jedi with a balanced Force. So, if the Force is now balanced, then we should see far greater Force powers than we've seen so far. If, in constrast, the Force is not balanced (retcon), then Anakin's ghost would have to return to balance it, and we'd need a lot more info about what balance really means.

    Possibly, we could get an even bigger retcon, and (for instance) Anakin didn't balance the Force by destroying the Sith but by creating the Skywalker lineage, or something like that?
  16. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    First off, I'd like to thank @Immortiss for the shout-out.

    Now regarding my position on the ever-controversial subject of the Chosen One prophecy. I agree with the sentiment that some clarification is definitely needed on the specific nature of the prophecy itself, especially as it applies to Anakin, whom we all assume to be the Chosen One of legend. The Mortis arc in TCW did attempt to explore the concept of balance regarding the Force and Anakin's ultimate role to be the galaxy's savior, but any answers it provided were vague and abstract at best, and the key questions still remain. Does the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force really meant destroying the Sith once and for all, which was fulfilled after the death of Palpatine and Vader on the second Death Star? Are the parameters of the original prophecy completely fulfilled then? Is there room for a new threat in the form of the Sith to once again unbalance the Force, necessitating the need for a new "Chosen One" to return it to balance?

    Actually, that last question seems to have been potentially answered by @Darth Chiznuk. Perhaps the prophecy refers to multiple Chosen Ones throughout history, all of whom must fulfill their purpose of setting the balance in balance. Perhaps there were plenty of failures as well as successes in the past, and these are reflected in the cyclical rise and fall of the ancient Jedi Orders and Sith Empires. If they decide to go this route, then perhaps one of the most prominent "Chosen Ones" of the past is none other than Revan himself, a man who was both Jedi and Sith, and possessed nearly unparalleled power and knowledge in the Force among his peers. I felt the story of Revan had many parallels to that of Anakin Skywalker, a fallen Jedi who turned to the Dark Side and became a feared Sith Lord before finally being redeemed to the Light (although in Revan's case, that was forced and he actually ended up becoming more of a "gray" Jedi and Well-Intentioned Extremist).

    Anakin was always a strange choice to be a Messiah-like figure, as he was both savior and destroyer. Again, see the parallels to Revan. I can see why his role in bringing down the old Jedi Order can give one doubts as to whether he's actually the Chosen One of legend. Personally, I don't find the idea of Anakin being both sides of the same coin a contradiction, and I think he is very much the Chosen One of legend. The prophecy is so vague that even the wisest members of the Jedi Council never considered that Anakin could play a role in their own destruction as well as that of the Sith. Indeed, by RotJ, Yoda and Obi-Wan both considered Vader beyond redemption, and it was up to Luke to help his father fulfill the prophecy. Still, if the Netherworld of the Force is introduced, Anakin may have a greater purpose or role to fulfill to complete his redemption, perhaps by assisting the new heroes from the great beyond to stop the new threat.

    While they might or might not choose to go in-depth in exploring the nature of the prophecy in the ST, Lucas did mention that the ST will focus on more philosophical issues of passing the torch and the ethereal aspects of the Force. With Lucas having written the original treatments, I can't help but to think that the concept of balance to the Force and the Chosen One prophecy will be explored in some way, shape, or form. Mortis might play a minor role, but I can't see it appearing in the ST, perhaps just a subtle hint or shout-out. The role of the next generation of Skywalker/Solo children should play heavily into this if they do indeed attempt to explore the prophecy. It might well be on the shoulders of Luke and/or his child(ren) to keep the Force in balance by defeating the new threat.

    This is indeed a fantastical topic to explore, and I look forward to hearing more opinions!
  17. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Not another immaculate birth, no, but I could see a plot line where Anakin is resurrected. However, I would be against this idea because I think the new heroes need to defeat the main villain on their own for this trilogy to really work as a "handing down the lightsaber" story. But if we look at mythological heroes many of them commit horrible deeds (like Heracles who killed his own children) and have to perform labors before they can be purified of their sins. I think a storyline where Anakin can't become one with the Force until he performs some type of duties which would somehow tie in with the new heroes journey would work quite well.
  18. ManaByte Chosen One

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    So...it'll be Harry Potter.
  19. clone3131 Force Ghost

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    I dont think I want Mortis in Episode VII. That whole thing was a bit trippy, and I really dont want to get high before a Star Wars movie to enjoy it....

    -C
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  20. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    The OT wasn't all action and adventure. Some of the best parts were the spiritual aspects, for example, Yoda and Luke on Dagobah. I think @sluggo1313. makes a good point though in regards to the highly allegorical nature of the Mortis episodes; that's probably why it seems poorly conceived, or lazy (people have generally lost their taste for allegory). The key to making any spiritual aspects work in the ST will be to make it as stylistically realistic as possible. If we actually end up in the Netherworld, it should look like a real concrete world, however strange it might be. And it has to be interesting too; not just a lot of talk, exposition, or obvious symbols.

    @Darth Chiznuk makes a compelling case for the cyclical nature of the Chosen One. The writers would probably like this idea because it allows for closure but also the ability to continue the saga at some point. We could revisit the GFFA a thousand years after the ST for another epic fight for control of the balance of the force. Similarly, we could go back in the past for the same thing. Not that we can't go past or forward for different things.

    Which begs the question: how does Lucas and the new creative team feel about the Chosen One, balance, and prophecy post PT? I can imagine some of the new team may not be exactly thrilled to revisit an idea that wasn't necessarily the most well received or understood aspects of the PT. Obviously Lucas thought it all fit well for his six film structure, but what now? Is it best to move on or use the ST as an opportunity to expand the Chosen One concepts? I do think it's entirely possible they may just want to move on and tell whatever new story they want, whatever they view as the most exciting ST story. The Chosen One plot may or may not be that. Personally, I fall on the side of symmetry: for me, an ST either means the Force was not really balanced, or that it can still be unbalanced. The problem is this means bringing back some old characters: probably Anakin, the Sith for sure, and maybe even Palpatine.

    I agree with many of the points Immortiss made in his original post. Anakin should not be the Chosen One. He's responsible for a similar scale of pain and suffering and genocide as Stalin, Hitler, and Mao. What sort of message is Star Wars sending by trumpeting this sort of destructive figure as a kind of messiah? Hey, I love the Sith, but the hero of this story needs to be someone more like Luke -- someone who has triumphed again and again over darkness and relieved suffering.

    SO (longwinded, sorry), if Anakin must be the Chosen One, I hope the ST allows him to fully redeem himself. I don't believe he has come close yet. He killed one evil figure and changed internally back to the light. That helps relieve future suffering, but not the past. There must be some new appropriate threat to life and the balance of the force for Anakin to truly deserve an anointed status. If not, like I said in another thread, Lucas' vision of the force is an absurdist view, like Kafka or Beckett. The force/life/nature produces a monster to restore balance by destroying life. This is an interesting irony, but it makes the force seem devoid of agency or even amoral.

    Or Anakin's fall to the darkside has eliminated him from the status of Chosen One. That means the mantle is either passed to Luke, or Anakin's grandchildren, or both. Or maybe all of the above. I think I might favor that route.
    Last edited by Dra---, Aug 26, 2013
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  21. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    I don't think it's a problem that Anakin is still the Chosen One after committing horrible acts because despite what a lot of people seem to think he's not space Jesus. He has much more in common with the ancient mythological heroes who suffer greatly and even cause a lot of suffering. But like I said I like the idea that Anakin must perform further duties to really become one with the Force.
  22. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    I had a theory about all this a while back: the prophecy says that a Chosen One will bring balance to the Force. Anakin did that by destroying the Sith–killing Palpatine and returning to the light side. However, the prophecy did not say that the Force would stay in balance forever. Personally, I think it would be cool to discover in VII a new clause in the prophecy: "The Chosen One will sacrifice himself to bring balance to the Force, and to his children falls the responsibility of keeping it that way." Or something like that, that exact clause sounded too corny. :p
  23. Dra--- Chosen One

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    Dec 30, 2012
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    I don't think I'd have a problem with this if Star Wars wasn't mainly marketed for kids. If you believe that the Saga is about clear rights and wrongs, the destroyer and savior version of the Chosen One confuses things greatly. Is Anakin evil or is he good? He committed evil acts. He committed good acts. The evil seems to outweigh the good; or does it? Who knows?

    Maybe I would have less of a problem with the Chosen One if it was called something different. Something that emphasized the ambiguous moral nature of the figure. "Chosen One" however makes it sound messianic, positive. But clearly it's more complex than that -- at least if Anakin is the Chosen One.

    Usually I'm all for cloudiness, but in this case, I'm not.
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  24. vinsanity Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 28, 2013
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    I don't want any of this prophecy, "he is the chosen one" in the next movies, i hated that in the PT, it was unnecessary.
  25. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    He has to be, unless there is a second miracle birth.