Discussion The Chosen One, the Prophecy and the ST.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Immortiss, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    balance of The Force means that nobody has a coercive poitical influence

    balance of Force-users is a fanmade term for an equal number of lightsiders and darksiders

    hope that clears things up
    Last edited by purplerain, Sep 23, 2013
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  2. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Lucas' words and (some) conventional fandom wisdom diverge a little bit there, but in both versions is basically means that the dark side doesn't dominate, and that the Force exists in a harmonious way--and that, thus, everyone's fates, and that of the universe as a whole, are in balance.

    In the PT, according to Mace and Yoda, that Force is out of balance--the dark side has grown so strong that it has diminished the Jedi's ability to use the Force. This directly goes against the notion that the balance of the Force is dependent on how many light and dark side users there are.
  3. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2013
    star 2
    Not sure what you are getting into here, but if Star Wars gives into despair, we are all doomed.

    And for those who think that the ''Force is evil'', it seems to me that you haven't understood the basic theological and religious concepts Star Wars draws upon.
    Last edited by El Jedi Colombiano, Sep 24, 2013
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  4. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
  5. DarthSpaced Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    star 1
    @Darth Archimage

    Very nicely done. RE: Option 3: It was never said that the Sith would never return so we have to go with the premise that because this incarnation of Sith, according to the Plagueis book, consisted of the most powerful Sith ever, the Jedi needed a chosen one to defeat him. Remember Yoda said Obi wasn't strong enough, and Yoda didn't do so great either. Hence, the need for a chosen one. The ST may be what the Jedi did in the previous 800-1000yrs to keep the "balance" before they got stagnate and too big for their britches. Luke and the new Order will be more aware, and on the look out, for an imbalance in the force especially if the Sith don't return unless 1 of the "kids" fall to the dark side. Maybe by having kids they undo Anakin's prophecy, (I'm not saying Jedi can't have kids, just Jedi that have Skywalker blood in their veins-seems to be problematic for both sides), and then he does/gives them something from the netherworld, like info or training or something to re-redeem himself. 1 little side thought: Anakin's more rebellious than Obi, right? Well, maybe where Obi "cannot interfere" in Luke facing Vader, again staying true to the old Jedi Dogma, maybe Anakin's attitude is, I am neither Jedi nor Sith "I'll be more than happy to interfere. Been itching for some action, netherworld's boring as hell." He left the Jedi when he became Vader and left the Sith when he killed Sidious. "I belong to neither sect. Finally, I am truly no longer a slave." Bang! Circle complete:eek:
  6. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    What few seem to get is that the PT established that part of achieving balance required the Jedi to fall as well because their selective use of the Force was as much a component of the imbalance as anything else. This didn't have so much to do with the number of Jedi, but rather what they were doing with the Force. How and what they were taught about using the Force.
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  7. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    This is a really interesting idea, but when we watch that video of GL talking about the Chosen One, it's certainly not the idea that was driving the PT. That's not to say it might not become a concept for the ST and the overall Saga. After all, in the PT and Clone Wars, you have the Jedi acting like a military force when they were intended to be protectors. Which seems too Sithy to me.

    Did you read that article in my OP of the thread I made on the New/Old Jedi Order? The writer's argument is very similar to yours: he calls the Jedi "d--ks." That the order was too joyless and anti-family, and that one of the problems with the PT is the audience didn't like the Jedi much. He argues the ST creators should take advantage of this and that the Jedi in the ST should be a strong contrast to the old. Which connects to your idea that the Jedi were also part of imbalancing the Force.

    I'll be disappointed actually, if the ST misses this opportunity.
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  8. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    So the Jedi caused the imbalance?
  9. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Where is this established?
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  10. sons_of_anakin_tatooine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2005
    star 3
    wouldnt that be luke and leia? they are his off spring. not a miracle but more like keeping that chosen one bloodline alive?
    Last edited by sons_of_anakin_tatooine, Sep 27, 2013
  11. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Pardon? We know from TPM that the Chosen One is a miracle birth, so neither Luke nor Leia can be the Chosen One.
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  12. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    This is established by showing in the PT that the Jedi Order was crumbling from within. The looks between Yoda and Mace, and comments like Yoda saying more and more Jedi are becoming arrogant. Their lessened abilty to use the Force. And the idea that they kept that a secret. The fact that they couldn't control Anakin. The idea that they were "taking a side" in political matters and protecting the Republic.

    Qui-Gon Jin was the only Jedi in the PT who, in the long run, was a representation of a true, or at least closer to true, Jedi. But he was shunned by the Order to a degree. He was not a team player, so to speak, with the Order, but as far as The Force was concerned, he was on the right team. Luke was more of a Qui-Gon Jedi in terms of his resolve to "stick to his gun" and trust his feelings, not just follow what Yoda and Obi told him to do. If he had, all would have been lost.

    Partially, yes. They had lost their way over time. Became complacent. Too sure of themselves.
    Last edited by LunarMoth, Sep 27, 2013
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  13. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    I don't see any evidence in the movies that this has anything to do with the balance of the Force. The Jedi's lessened ability to use the Force is because of the growing dark side (per Yoda and Mace's dialogue), not with any flaw of the Jedi themselves.
  14. Maharishineo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2013
    star 1
    I mean, if you look at the characters that drove the outcome of the entire series, they're the ones that reflect our own view of what the Force should be, what we should strive for in ourselves; it should be a balance. We need to have compassion, love, emotion but it's important that we also retain control of them, act accordingly and do so with good in our hearts.

    Qui-Gon discovers the chosen one whereas the Jedi Order drive him to the dark side. His methods lead him to learning ways of the Force that were previously unknown; he becomes Yoda's master (Jedi are defeated and Yoda sees he has much to learn; it's about more than becoming a force-ghost, as it's Jinn's connection with the force that allowed him to tap into that potential). It's Anakin and Luke's compassion for one another as father and son that lead them to conquering the dark side.

    I'm just touching the surface but of course I'm only doing so because I think it's obvious (painstakingly so, as are many of the themes in the prequel trilogy), Lucas's vision of what the Jedi were, what they should be, and how it was a driving force as to why Anakin turned and why they were overcome by Palpatine.
    Last edited by Maharishineo, Sep 27, 2013
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  15. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    The evidence is that the Jedi were wiped out in the process of Anakins destiny. He was to bring balance to the Force. In doing so he wiped out both the Jedi and the Sith. It was his destiny.
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  16. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    The Force wanted a clean slate.
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  17. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    And where's the evidence that the Jedi being wiped out is part of bringing balance to the Force? Certainly that's not Lucas' intent AFAIK.
  18. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    Anakins destiny was to bring balance to the Force, no? Being as his actions led to the Jedi being wiped out, I would say that because Anakin caused it, it was part of his purpose. If it was part of his purpose, which was to bring balance to the Force, it was part of achieving that balance.

    If you don't see it, you don't see it I guess. That's how I understood things post PT. I could be wrong.

    What is AFAIK?
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  19. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    Each new thread seems to operate in a vacuum. We find a topic (and, yes, this is a good one, and is fun, but...) and assume it will be the focal point of the ST. Another thread was about Remnant Empire factions, and I don't recall the prophecy coming up in that one at all.

    What this forum needs is a good thread that includes ALL of the assumed "open" plot lines from both the PT and the OT, and try to make sense of them.

    That is, how do you make a story that weaves together:
    - the prophecy
    - force ghosts
    - government post- ROTJ
    - Sith legacy

    Etc.
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  20. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    But Anakin didn't wipeout all the Jedi. There were at least two that fulfilled their destinies. Especially Obi-Wan, who most certainly felt responsibility and failure for Anakin and his circumstances. I hope that his sacrifice wasn't merely an act demanded by the gods. His will sacrosanct.

    Yes, Qui-Gon and Luke have similarities, but would Qui-Gon (or Luke) ever advocate training Anakin to fulfill a destiny that nearly destroyed all the Jedi? That may have been his fate, but the consequences are a dire determinism in which there is no free-will and Anakin, and everyone else (and their actions) for that matter, must be judged by an extreme fatalism, the consequences of which liken Qui-Gon the biggest buffoon in the history of prophets. According to you, even while Anakin was fulfilling his mission, Qui-Gon resisted. Even in death.

    The passing of Yoda and Ben were not prophecy fulfillment, but a writer's device to isolate and heighten the doubts of success for the hero in his personal quest to remain a Jedi and face a father who had consistently and purposely chosen to selfishly kill his former enemies and friends. Denying his destiny, not fulfilling it. Luke's work was not aggression, but active resistance. He presented a moral choice that persuaded his Father to kill in the name of moral righteousness. Making a moral decision to redeem himself. There is no conscious act of prophecy fulfillment on Anakin's part ("Holy ****, I'm fulfilling the Prophecy", *as he throws Palpatine down*); only an awareness of his own Son's impending doom.

    In this scenario it would appear the Force a greater threat than any Sith could possibly present. The Jedi might want to consider a different spiritual relationship. With friends like this, who needs enemies?

    The verdict is out on Balance. I guess we'll see what the situation in the ST presents, but I think it's still unbalanced in favor of the Sith, and only the Chosen One (with the help of his progenitors) will fulfill the prophecy. Then there will be a millennia of peace and Justice...for a thousand generations...and the Mandala wheel keeps turning...
  21. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    By the end of ROTJ, all the Jedi of old were wiped out. The only one left was Luke, who was not of the same cloth as Yoda and Obi. He was more in tune with the Force from the standpoint of being mindful and trusting his feelings. He let the Force guide him as it is intended to do. The Jedi order of the PT had become "text book" Jedi who, much like "text book" anything, think they know what they are doing more often than they are correct. This was the point of Yoda and Mace's comments and gestures.

    Qui-Gon knew Anakin was the Chosen One. He was correct, but didn't know how things would go down. There would be no opportunity for him to advocate such things. It was everyone's choices that caused the events to go the way they did, not a no free will situation, from the Jedi rejection of Anakin to Anakin's reaction and subsequent decisions. For example, had the Jedi embraced Anakin as the Chosen One from the start, perhaps the need to wipe the Jedi out would not have been there. A change in their use of the Force may have satisfied a balance in the Force. By the end of the day, the Jedi had to go because they refused to change their ways.

    I'm not saying that balance could only come from wiping out the Jedi, but rather that their misuse of the Force was contributing to the imbalance. Correcting that could come in a number of ways based on decisions made along the way. By the time everything went down, being rid of them was the only way. It just as easily could have been different if the Jedi decided to embrace Anakin as the Chosen One, and listened to Qui-Gon's view of the Force a bit more. They didn't. These decisions led to Anakins decisions, and we all know how that turned out.

    You are correct to say that Anakin did not make a conscious effort to fulfill the prophecy at the end of ROTJ. The decision he made in that moment was exactly as you described. Funny how the very same act fulfilled the prophecy. That's what destiny is. That's the point.
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  22. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    O.K. I'll accept the argument.

    Balance meant destroying the SIth and the Jedi, excepting Luke and Leia. There must be no old school Jedi or Sith in the ST. Prophecy concluded. No need for Anakin. No significant reason, perhaps minor.

    We both agree on Plagueis as a villain. How does he return, circumventing the prophecy and threatening Luke, Leia, et. al.?

    Dont' say 'evil finds a way'. Let's hear it, because I'm interested. An immaculate child born 30 to 40 years ago is Plagueis? The moment Anakin fulfills the prophecy?

    Or will it be computer hardware; no clone, I hope.

    The Plagueis novel shows that Plagueis could go so deep inside of himself, through the Dark Side, that even Palpatine was shocked that he couldn't detect him. Potential prophecy circumvention?
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  23. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Also, that works fine for I-VI, but there are sequels coming. If the Balance story was the original VII-IX, condensed into VI, what does that mean for the ST story? Seems lame to have the Chosen One bring balance...and balance continues...oh, imbalance now, so soon after balance. How do we balance it again? Will everyone need wiping out?

    It doesn't sit right with me now that we're going to have a sequel.
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  24. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I haven't read this whole thread, but seems natural to me that regardless of Lucas's previous comments about the prophecy being fulfilled at the end of ROTJ, the only ways to reconcile the prophecy with the existence of more movies are either for Anakin to have a further role beyond death, or for his role as the Chosen One to include procreation and involve a generational aspect to bringing balance to the Force. Either option would sit fine with me, but the prophecy must at least be considered in the writing of the ST, because otherwise I'd have to call shenanigans on the whole thing.
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  25. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    It's too late to edit my last post but I thought I might as well copy and paste this from the Netherworlds thread:
    I'm not expecting this to pan out or anything, but it does have an appeal to me, and solves a number of logical problems at the same time.
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Sep 27, 2013
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