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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Force, the Chosen One, Balance, and the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Immortiss, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    I dislike the idea of Anakin being created for an evil purpose.
     
  2. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Yes, if you really go for it you gotta tie it somehow to the dichotomy of the dark and light side. It could be that the two force "sides" only reflect a division in the soul of beings. In a Jedi the "good part" would be dominant and in a Sith the bad part. A normal Joe non-force user sometimes has a stronger good part and sometimes a stronger bad part. They are not as set as Jedi/Sith. If you train as Jedi/Sith, you make a commitment and this in turn causes one of the soul parts to become dominant.

    In Vader obviously the good part somehow regained control which has never happened before.

    But probably way too metaphysical. And if badly executed it could appear pretty lame.
     
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  3. Lord TW

    Lord TW Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2012
    @Immortus: an elegant resurrection could be tolerable, and yes, force ghosts signify resurrection. I worry more that they will have too big a role in the action sequences, and come off as a trope. We've seen it in LOTR: ROTK and as many have pointed out here, in Pirates 3.

    So force ghosts are probably inevitable, but if the ST becomes a battle for Limbo or something like that, I will be disappointed. I anticipate more originality from SW.
     
  4. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    The only way we’ll see Vader in the ST is in a vision, not unlike the cave scene in TESB. No living, breathing being, though.
     
  5. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2013
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

    I agree with you to an extent. There is a risk of jumping the shark.

    The Sith want to completely destroy the Jedi. From the point of view of Sith the Force Ghosts are an impediment. If Plagueis is the primary villain and his plan includes control of the Force, limiting it or suppressing it with midi-chlorian viruses, then it may be possible to separate the protagonists from their Force Ghost Elders. No help from the other side. If Luke dies in VII and his Ghost is nowhere to be seen, his body does not disappear, then the protagonists will be faced with an existential problem. They will be isolated and must figure out how to solve the problem. How to re-connect with Father and Grandfather Skywalker. They will need the Ghosts at some point, but the Ghosts will need them first.

    Star Wars is already an original myth. Nowhere else will you find the Force, lightsabers, Jedi, Sith and on and on. We know it borrows heavily from many other traditions, too.

    I agree, I would not like to see a deus ex machina in SW. The problem is that the story needs to end? There should be several problems (large story, personal, moral) that are resolved in the last part of IX. I think it best that Anakin returns form Force Ghost isolation to help destroy an Army of Skelo-Troopers and perhaps Plagueis conjured undead Sith (Bane) dressed in Vader Armor (so Anakin is slaying his alter ego).

    Are you ready to hurl yet?:p
     
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  6. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Yes, that catch 22 presents itself, but still, the decision he made, although not by his purpose, also served his destiny. Again, this is what destiny is. He was the Chosen One, and he did know it. He thought he could just refuse the position, but it happened anyway. Had he embraced it differently, because he did have free will, it could have been fulfilled in a different manner. His actions, one way or another, were going to bring balance to the Force. [face_skull]

    I believe the ST will simply transform the story from the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, to the Skywalker Saga in general. I think the end result will be that Anakin will have learned, failed, redeemed himself, and passed on what he has learned, giving his descendants the ability to face and conquer a returning threat. A threat that is related to the rest of the Saga, yet discovered a way around the Chosen One.
     
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  7. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    So far, so good. What is the nature of the threat? What is the main problem in the ST and the culmination of the saga? Does this problem create an imbalance or are the Jedi maintaining the balance. If the prophecy is circumvented, then it cannot be fulfilled. What is foreordained must be resolved in the end.
     
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  8. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2004
    My feeling is that, ok, Star Wars is now a nine movie saga. That means that while to an extent each movie as well as each trilogy must tell its own story, they also have to fit into a larger story that spans all nine films. This is very much the case with the current six movie saga and if they're going to add more Episodes to that saga then they have to fit into that framework. If not then they really have no business being made in the first place. There's a consistent micro/macro thing at work in Star Wars which is one of the interesting aspects of it to me. Each film follows a three act structure while also itself being one act of a three act trilogy, and on a larger scale each trilogy should also be an act in a larger three act structure. So it seems to me that basic storytelling rules require that the themes and problems introduced in the beginning can be explored in different ways throughout each trilogy, but they can't be fully resolved until the end of the saga. So if you introduce a prophecy in the first movie of the saga, you can't just fulfill it 2/3 of the way through and move on to something else for the last third. And if you accept that, then Anakin must still have a role to play in fulfilling that prophecy and bringing balance to the Force that goes beyond simply destroying the Sith. On the same note, the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith has been at the core of the saga until now and I don't see how that can be abandoned 2/3 of the way through either, so IMO the Sith must also return in some form.
     
  9. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Well stated.:cool:
     
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  10. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    Desire makes hypocrites of us all.

    At least you can admit it. ;)
     
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  11. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Maybe it's that I have a broader interpretation of the story, but when I think of the conflict that drives the core of the existing series, I don't see a battle against the Sith as much as I do one main's attachment being his downfall and another man's idea of the same being the savior of his very soul. To keep this going I wouldn't necessarily need the Sith to return or hazy prophecies to come back into play, but only for the lead character to face a similar trial of inner resolve/truth. Anakin lost his family, Luke forged his own, and to continue this thematic journey maybe the new lead could decide she has to willingly forsake her own personal ties to the Jedi/Skywalker legacy in order to achieve what she perceives as a greater calling. To me a story like this could certainly exude a classic Star Wars feeling even if no one in the narrative is named Darth something or other.
     
  12. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    We will see familiar OT characters in VII, right? In VIII the new characters will be alone, unless you have Ancient Undead Sith dressed as Vader/Ancient Sith Armor terrorizing the GFFA.. Then, we may see familiar PT characters in the end of IX.
     
  13. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    But there are several stories occurring at the same time. This thread is focusing on the big background story and main problem the villain(s) present. The story your talking about is the personal hero story that is intrinsic, because that is what connects us and allows us to care about the hero. I love this idea you present here and would be very disappointed if it weren't there, too. It is the heart and soul of SW. All of the big story is happening at the same time the hero is battling a personal conflict.
     
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  14. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Yeah obviously, there is going to be a main problem and a larger background story beyond the inner character stuff. My point is that I think it could still work (and perhaps work better) if all that stuff is allowed to go in a different direction than a new red saber wielding Sith lord.
     
  15. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    The only problem I see with this, however, is the fact that we are no longer discussing the same established story now. Now we're talking about a different story and we know that this is a sequel to the previous stories. But I love the personal hero story.[face_peace]
     
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  16. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    There's always the Whill Nots. If you're going to continue the story beyond the destruction of the Sith, what better way than those who corrupted the very first Sith?
     
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  17. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    At the moment all speculation about Episode VII's plot is exactly that: speculation. I disagree that my own contribution to this larger pool of fan speculation is a "problem."
     
  18. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Please take no offense. I meant no such disrespect. Like I said, I love your ideas about the personal hero story.

    It isn't a problem per se. In considering the plot for Episode VII, I see it as problematic, that's all. My opinion.

    Personally, I think Lucas will double down on the ST. He will not back away from the PT. The saga will be entirely interconnected.[face_peace]
     
  19. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Agreed. I just hope the people who have the final say-so will go along with that. They've already made some choices that I seriously doubt are Lucas-approved, but I would imagine they at least respect his story ideas enough to not try to go in a totally different direction than the one he laid out.
     
  20. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2012
    If what I expect we will see in the ST, the prophecy will not be abandoned. I do believe that Anakin did fulfill the prophecy by the end of ROTJ, however, it I also believe that it will be at the center of things in the ST as the prophecy itself could be what leads us to the ST villain, who I believe will be Plaguesis. The key here is the use of the term "un-natural" when it comes to the extent of Plagueis' abilities. It would take an "un-natural" ability to essentially "not exist" when the prophecy was fulfilled, and even more so to return after the fact. [face_skull]
     
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  21. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Hmmm... That's interesting. I do think there's a good chance that Lucas was planting seeds for the ST in the prequels, ROTS in particular. Plagueis is a definite possibility for further exploration, as is Yoda's enigmatic line about the prophecy possibly being misread, which really leaves it open to a very different interpretation that what we've been led to believe up until now.
     
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  22. Lord TW

    Lord TW Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Most folks here think the story will unfold and connect the trilogies based on what Anakin did later in his life and upon death, who he met, and what was told to him.

    I wonder if it might be more interesting if the ST story examines the prophecy a bit differently - something a little less predictable, that may also come off as a retcon, but far more believable - and that could also build the ST up so that it "mirrors" the PT?

    That is: what if we find out that the Force did NOT conceive Anakin?

    It's not implausible. Or at least no less implausible than Darth Plageuis living, Anakin's ghost fighting a war on the Ethereal plane, etc. and it could open up a wide array of story possibilities.

    Maybe Shmi was nuts. After all, who lets her 9-year-old decide if he's gonna travel the galaxy with a bunch of weirdos from another planet?

    Etc.
     
  23. StoneRiver

    StoneRiver Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2004
    (Posted in both the Netherworld and the Chosen One threads)

    How's this for a possibility regarding the netherworlds of the Force, the Chosen One, the Prophecy and the ST?

    When the saga finished at RotJ the prophecy was fulfilled storywise.
    But when the decision was made to continue the saga, the proverbial goal posts must be moved as it is a continuation of the story that has been built, and because of this we must change our view and come to the conclusion that the Prophecy is not fulfilled and there is more to do from the Chosen One.

    How about that line from Yoda "A prophecy that was misread, could have been"?
    I am proposing that the prophecy WAS misread. That the Jedi understood it to mean destroy the Sith in the physical realm, but it meant so much more. (It would help if we knew what it said)

    At the time of his physical death Anakin joined the Force but retained his identity. Yoda and Obi-Wan also retain identities but what separates them is that they learned how to do this whereas anakin didn't. Maybe the Force ensured he kept his identity because the chosen One is not finished? What if by the time EPIX comes round, Anakin must make the ultimate
    sacrifice for the good of the GFFA and truly become one with the Force. Lose his identity, no longer be Anakin but join the highest level of the Force (thanks Circular Logic ) in a way beyond standard comprehension. (Maybe this is what it means to be a Whill? - but I'd guess that's another subject)

    The Chosen One, he who is born of the Force, must fully return to the Force in order to fulfill the prophecy in it's entirety.

    Anakin making the ultimate sacrifice would work as a method to stop either a returning spirit Plapy, or the emergence of the head honcho midichlorian manipulator our mate Plagueis who wishes to control the Force, or even some new Sith whose motives and character are yet to be seen.

    Using this scenario, we could have the ethereal theme so often quoted, some form of battle for the Force in the netherworld, a fitting conclusion to the whole open door that is the Chosen One/Prophecy story arc, and the pinnacle of redeeming acts for our messiah-like Skywalker. Ticks all the boxes.

    I have no idea how they would show, or explain, any of this effectively though so that's kind of a bummer on the whole thing.

    Oh, and FWIW, I am a believer that Hayden was put into RotJ firstly as a precaution in case the ST was ever made, but more importantly so the character can be in ST using the same actor for the sake of continuity.

    I reckon the Chosen One has more to do to fulfill the prophecy, and the netherworld will be the setting.

    I feel that if the Sith are in the ST (SW without Sith, yeah right), then the whole Prophecy arc must be continued and concluded
    or they really do run the risk of making the previous 6 episodes redundant.

    Well those are my thoughts - damn those mushrooms were good.

    Time to pick holes, dissect, expand upon, and clarify.... 1, 2, 3.... go.
     
  24. Lord TW

    Lord TW Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2012
    And therein lies the problem. It is interesting but very complex.

    Your core idea is spectacularly simple - what if the Jedi were wrong? - and that is a good path to follow. In that, it is similar to the concept I proposed - what if The Force did not conceive Anakin? With either question, the answers could make for a good story that won't necessarily require all this crazy Netherworld stuff.
     
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  25. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2004
    This may be semantics, but it's never stated that Anakin was conceived by the Force. What they say is that he was conceived by the Midichlorians. Subtle but important difference I think. I don't think that will change, but the mystery of who or what was behind it is a very interesting one to me, especially in light of Palpatine's revelation in Episode III. I know it was explained in the Darth Plagueis novel, but I still think it's ripe for further exploration in the ST, along with the prophecy itself.