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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Force, the Chosen One, Balance, and the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Immortiss, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Anakin is like God from OT Bible, he's self justifying.
     
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  2. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    You've got guts. ^:)^
     
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  3. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    All I mean is that the God of the OT Bible wiped out Jews (his chosen people in the Judeo-Christian Trads) and gentiles alike. Ask Noah.
     
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  4. Darth Archimage

    Darth Archimage Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 28, 2013
    Obi-wan: " You were the Chose One! You were suppose to destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness..."

    Does balance come when/because the Sith are destroyed? Or is "destroying the Sith" and "bringing balance to the Force" two separate requirements of the Prophesy?
     
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  5. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    -"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance."
    -"Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
    -"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy,"
    -"In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!"

    Is any of that helpful?
     
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  6. Loupgarou

    Loupgarou Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 19, 2010
    All of that wasn't explained in episode 2, but alright George. I also don't think the films are completely consistent on that issue, but i do think the intent is obvious; the Dark Side is a blight on the force, not a natural yin-yang deal as many of us see it.

    On the OP, i hope the prophecy is not mentioned because it has already been fulfilled, and i fear any further attempts to explain it would be convoluted. This doesn't mean everything is perfect; no one ever said bring balance to the force FOREVER. I just hope they steer clear from prophecy because unless done really well it comes off cheap.
     
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  7. Darth Archimage

    Darth Archimage Jedi Master star 3

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    May 28, 2013
    When knowing RoTJ was the end of the saga, it would be helpful -- now I'm not so sure, just confused. :confused:
     
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  8. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    The only way the ST could avoid mentioning the prophecy would be for no darksiders to appear in the ST.
     
  9. Darth Archimage

    Darth Archimage Jedi Master star 3

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    May 28, 2013

    This is the opinion of many, however I find that a prophesy which must have been around for hundreds of years before it was fulfilled, to only have lasted a few decades (if the Sith are to return in Ep VII) a bit unnecessary -- why even have the prophesy in the first place?
     
  10. Corax78

    Corax78 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 2, 2008
    This question's answer revolves around changing ideas that George had, not only during the creation of the Prequels but also the creation of the Clone Wars.

    During the production of the Prequels for the most part the Sequel Trilogy didn't exist. So the prophecy was brought in as a way for Anakin's return to the light side to have an even more powerful effect when he defeated Palpatine. The TCW really got going and the idea of continuing the Saga really started to manifest. Thus we are introduced to Mortis and the Father, Son and Daughter and we are literally spoon fed what the prophecy truly is. The son shows Anakin what will happen to him if he doesn't take the Father's place to restore balance. Anakin chooses not to, the Father mind wipes the futer events from Anakin's mind and the Force goes spiraling to the dark side.

    Palpatine may have been stopped, but the balance of the Force is still out of place, according to what TCW added to the mix. Now the question becomes how do our heroes restore that balance in the Sequel Trilogy?
     
  11. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    That's not how that episode resolved. It resolved with all three force beings dead, and the father proclaiming that Anakin was the chosen one because he brought balance back to Mortis, and that he would bring the force in balance again at a time in the future.

    The force was growing out of balance after the Son killed the Daughter. The Dark lives, while the Light has died. It is brought back into balance once the Son dies, and the Father dies. The father tells us this.

    So, the force is in balance when they leave Mortis, according to the episode.

    This is the problem with mixing EU and films. They are not parts of the same story.
     
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  12. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Well, the Force has a natural light and dark side. These two need to be in balance with each other so as the dark side threatens to consume the light that is why Anakin is born. But what if it was the other way and the light was threatening to consume the dark side? Then I assume a Chosen One would have been born just like we have with Anakin. What I'm trying to get is I don't think the Force favors either side because they are both a natural part of the overall Force of the universe. I don't think you can say that the Force is moral or amoral because I think it would be above such human concepts. Life creates the Force and as life has both good and evil, light and dark so too does the Force. This is why I have no problem with Anakin being the Chosen One. Yes, he horrible deeds but he's not supposed to be some cookie cutter messiah. In many ways he represents the Force we see in the saga better than anyone. He has both light and dark inside him and the dark consumes him for a while (just as the dark side consumes the light side for a while) before the light side eventually triumphs.
     
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  13. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    No, the two don't need to be in balance. While that is one possible idea of what a balance could be like, it's not the one Lucas has been talking about all the time. Not once do you hear him speak about light and dark having to be in balance with each other. He either is unspecific about the matter, or (which is most of the time) saying that the dark side is corrupting the force, with the light side being the normal state. This also shows in the behaviour of the force-users. Jedi listen to the will of the force, while Sith try to bend the force to their will. Letting the force do its thing does not hurt it, but twisting it around certainly does. The darkside is more like what an oil spill is to nature. Oil is part of nature, it wouldn't exist without it, but it's not supposed to spill and kill all the life nearby, so when it does, it hurts the nature and brings it out of balance.
     
  14. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Agreed... I don't think it's meant to be a Yin-Yang view of equal light and dark, which is part of why I dislike Mortis. I've said this many times but I'll summarize my view again here.

    You have the Force, and you have the dark side of the Force. It's a small and naturally occurring part of the Force. It's there and you can't get rid of it. And that's fine, except that when someone (the Sith) USE the dark side in destructive, self-serving ways, it makes the dark side grow unnaturally beyond its normal small size, and that is what makes the Force go out of balance. So "balance" is really more like "harmony" than literal balance between opposing sides in terms of strength or numbers.

    Normal state:
    The Force
    |--------------------------------------------------|
    |--------|
    The dark side of The Force
     
  15. Echo-07

    Echo-07 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Good thread, firstly! Kudos! =D=

    I think the ST will revolve around much of what you mentioned, specifically, that the Prophecy was not misread but misinterpreted, as in: what does Balance of the Force actually mean? Vader wiped out the Sith. Yet that doesn't seem to balance the Force as the Dark Side is virtally defeated. And since we're going to have more conflict I can't see any more movies without Jedi. Therefore, it seems highly logical as well as highly probable that we will see Sith. NOT the Rule of Two Sith, mind you, but a whole legion of Dark Side Force practitioners of all shapes sizes and abilities -- Sith Witches, Apprentices, Maul-like "Hitmen," serious players, and Darths leading the way! IMO this legion brings Balance to the Force (thusly the 7 movie title will likely be Balance of the Force or something of the like.)

    I think also that the riddle of Darth Plaguies -- and it is an occult riddle -- is closely tied to Force Ghosts. I believe that DP and Sidious will have to make re-appearnces if even as Sith Ghosts in order to guide this new legion of Sith. Again, the theme of balance Light vs Dark, Good vs Evil, requires that SINCE Jedi can appear as ghosts so too should the Sith.

    Lastly, as for GL, I think people paint him as "wishy-washy" when they cite that he's often changed his mind or polt points in the story. However, I think that just proves one thing -- those who question this and make it to be a bigger deal than it is have never written anything. GL is writing a MYTHOLOGY. As such plot points and ideas may change and/or morph. IF GL committed any kind of mistake it's that he was always very verbose about his Saga and potential ideas for where it may or may not go in the future (IE 12 Episodes long.) Ultimately, he's a man (a human no less) and has the right to change his mind or direction for HIS STORY. Ultimately, what ends up on screen IS the MYTHOLOGY. NOT interviews, or first drafts or comic book adaptations of long-dead concepts. The story = the movies. If something seems to get retconned so be it. GL has been very clever to genius in how easily he can explain apparent retcons, paradoxes, or contradictions.
     
  16. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I agree with part of this. Yes it is the Sith that try to bend the Force to their own will and that's why they must be destroyed to bring balance to the Force. It's the Sith that cause the dark side to grow way beyond its natural state but in the end you cannot destroy the dark side anymore than you can destroy evil in the galaxy. Evil is just as natural to the universe as good and since life creates the Force it will always have an equal share of it.
     
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  17. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Right, you cannot destroy the dark side, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily one-half of a balanced state. It's just there, as my awesome diagram above shows (my view of it). :p A natural, small part of the larger whole. I don't think evil has any natural tendency to be half of the whole, or to equal good.
     
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  18. Corax78

    Corax78 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2008
    This has nothing to do with the EU. Did you see me mention the EU? No you didn't. Now these next few quotes are directly from the new episode guide.

    'The Mortis trilogy was written in close consultation with George Lucas, who offered significant new insights into the nature of the Force and the Jedi prophecy of the Chosen One.'

    'Anakin passes the test by overcoming both the Daughter and the Son and freeing his friends. The Father declares he is indeed the Chosen One, destined to replace him and keep his children in balance. But will Anakin agree?'

    'All is lost- the BALANCE has been BROKEN.'- The Father

    'The Father erases Anakin's memory of the vision to help restore balance. The Father sees only one way to prevent the Son from leaving Mortis and wreaking havoc on the galaxy. With Anakin's help, he sets a tragic endgame in motion in which he and the Son both die.'

    Now from that last quote it would appear that you are correct and that balance was restored. BUT, the closing quote opens the Mortis trilogy up to more than what we saw.

    'The Father takes away Anakin's knowledge of what he has seen. But whether this dose of amnesia is good or bad for the galaxy is unknown.'

    So even though the Father sacrificed himself and the Son to restore balance, Anakin still went on to become Vader like the Son showed him. When Sith start appearing in the Sequel Trilogy, and they will, a lot of things will come back to what was set up in the Prequels and The Clone Wars about the prophecy, the Chosen One and Mortis. Expect a more philosophical and ethereal take on the Force in the Sequels.

    Another thing to take away from Mortis in TCW is that the Son may have died, but some of his philosophies still persist, especially with Darth Maul. Also did you notice that AFTER the Mortis trilogy Mother Talzin seemed to have another voice speaking through her? Could it be the Son? Then there's also the newer theory that Sidious channeled the Son when he christened Anakin Lord Vader.

    Things were being set up in TCW that very, very few people were paying attention to.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Thing is- Lucasfilm Licencing's definition of the EU is basically "everything that's not the 6 movies".

    Making TCW EU- even if Lucas has a greater involvement with it than with the rest of the EU.
     
  20. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I have to disagree with you eht13. I think the Mortis arc showed that the dark side is just as much a part of the Force as the light side and that too much of either unbalances the Force. That makes sense to me since when I look at our own world I can't honestly say that evil is a smaller part of it than good.
     
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  21. Corax78

    Corax78 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 2, 2008
    Actually the definition of canon is anything that was either in theaters or on TV. TCW IS canon, it's above all the books, comics and games, it's right up there with the movies.
     
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  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Arawn_Fenn has provided Lucas quotes about the nature of the Force on occasions when the topic came up- these were the quotes:

    There's G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, and so forth.
    The term "EU" can cover all of these- since it means "anything that isn't the movies".
    Some G-canon material is not in the movies- but is still EU- because it came direct from Lucas. Stuff in the TPM novel about Darth Bane, for example.
     
  23. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Well, that's part of why I dislike Mortis... because I don't think that's the view of the Force that the movies themselves present to us. The movies never hint at the possibility of too much light unbalancing the Force. The movies don't even use the term the "light side" at all, nor any representation of that being half of the Force... just a noob Luke saying "the good from the bad" when asking Yoda questions.
     
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  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    If TCW is EU, as wookieepedia defines it-

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Expanded_Universe

    shouldn't it be discussed in the EU thread?

     
  25. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    The CW series isn't EU. George Lucas not only had a (very) hand in it, but he also constructed a lot of the stories, according to Filoni himself. That's not EU.