Discussion The Chosen One, the Prophecy and the ST.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Immortiss, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Darth Archimage Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2013
    star 2
    Yes, but Lucas is known for changing his mind, and Disney may see it different anyway.
    I'm curious if the general audience would feel there is any difference between a Sith and just another bad guy.
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    More that the dynamic between Sith Master and Sith Apprentice is like that.

    "And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jun 12, 2014
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  3. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    I think we simply have a fundamental disagreement about how best to proceed with the story. Conflict alone isn't enough and without a main saga resolution the ST might risk being a considerable let down. Story beats are not overall themes or motifs. Beats move the protagonist forward to his or her goal. Besides, the repetition of themes is a hallmark of the SW saga story. I think the goal and problem of the heroes will relate to the state of the Force being out of balance and the galaxy in tatters, without a New Republic, even after thirty years. The force will be disturbed and in grand fashion and the New Republic will struggle with the forces of repression until it is finally re-established. That disturbance will not simply be resolved in a duel between Luke and _______________ (fill in the blank) or the the decision to save a fallen Jedi or not. The ST must offer up an existential threat, one convincing enough to suspend the certainty of the victory of the protagonists. No, conflict alone will not due, the problem must be intrinsic to the previous story in my view. The problem is the same as it ever was...the absence of a genuine Republic and the elusive balance.
    Last edited by Immortiss, Jun 12, 2014
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  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Before Lucas came up with balance of the Force, the central conceit was overthrowing the Empire and restoring the Republic. The story worked without it and was easily done without an existential threat. That doesn't mean that it was a bad idea to add one, but the next chapter of the story isn't entirely contingent on it beyond ROTJ. The stakes can be just as high without it being an issue again.
  5. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2

    I was just about to write something like this.

    The prophecy is a retcon, and an undeveloped, shoehorned one at that. The prophecy plays exactly one role in Anakin's life, and that's his birth. You can remove the idea of prophecy and the Force being unbalanced from the rest of the PT and lose absolutely nothing. I've written at length on the prophecy in the C-3PO/R2D2 thread in this sub-forum if anyone wants more detail on my thoughts on the matter (look for May 1st).

    So, while some people may want the ST to deal with the prophecy one way or another, there's really nothing compelling Kasdan and Abrams to go in that direction.
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  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Barad-dur and Mt. Doom are different locations, and Frodo didn't throw the ring into Mt. Doom at any point.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jun 12, 2014
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  7. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    True enough. I should be more precise distinguishing between his charge and the actual events.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    And don't believe the Silmarillion and its lies!!!
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  9. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, Sir.
  10. Jair Crawford Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    I wouldn't either, but the more I thought of it, the more it seemed like... too much. lol

    It'd be hard to sell that story without it seeming a bit over-the-top.
  11. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    First, the dominance of the Empire over the Rebel Alliance is an explicit imbalance in the state of affairs in the GFFA. The Civil War is the secular conflict. As we make our way through the OT we learn the problem is also, and primarily, a spiritual one. Second, the Death Star is probably one of the best examples of an existential threat conceived in the genre, but not only that, Palpatine threatens to exterminate the Jedi Knights forever. Third, the story is progressing and in each installment we learn something new about the story, which seems to alter/change our initial impressions of character roles and themes in the saga. I think that will continue and not change. I'm betting the Balance of the Force is and will remain the central theme of the story. What is being proposed by you and others seems too regressive for part VII to me. i.e., how things were before the story progressed or changed as it invariably has. In short, balancing the light and the dark in each of us is the existential theme in the saga and I don't foresee that omitted for the ST either. As always, just my opinion.[face_peace]
    Last edited by Immortiss, Jun 13, 2014
  12. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
    star 4
    One or two lines can easily resolve the issue of balance.

    With the Sith thought to have been destroyed in ROTJ, one or two lines to Luke (possibly said by the ghost of Yoda and/or Obi-Wan) suggests that the prophecy was grossly misinterpreted through arrogance. Anakin was never meant to have children and, since he did, the Force was kept somewhat out of balance. He was the chosen one, but temporarily broke that due to going against the Jedi ways (think Lancelot and then his son Galahad). Ironically, Luke's very existence has kept the Force out of balance. Yeah, I know it's very contrived, but it works (no better than old Spock coming back in ST09).

    Luke (kind of like Harry Potter at the end), feels as though it is his own destiny to die eventually and only that can lead to the true chosen one who will finally bring balance to the Force. Perhaps that's his own son (Gleeson). Perhaps it's a padawan that isn't related to a Skywalker (Boyega) Perhaps it's the offspring of Leia, the hidden twin (Daisy)
  13. hachijedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2012
    star 3
    "The One" has now been transferred over to Luke as he is the son of Anakin who was the One. The Prophecy was completed with Vader's sacrifice and balance was brought the Force. Luke inherited his Dad's magical bloodline. That doesn't mean the Force can't be unbalanced with An Ancient enemy (No Pun there, lol).
  14. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
    star 4
    ^^^ good point

    perhaps (it's similar to what I described) since The chosen one had a son, the cycle has been repeated. When the chosen one came onto the scene, the Force seemed to be balanced. Now that Anakin has a son, the same thing happens.
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  15. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    How's about Luke learns that the whole 'Chosen One' thing was a fallacy. Shmi was telling porkies about the virgin birth and Anakins poppa actually worked behind the bar of a backstreet Mos Eisley drinking pit. In all seriousness, I genuinely feel all the Chosen One and bringing balance stuff...I'll stop there. Sorry.
  16. hachijedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2012
    star 3

    If the Cycle is repeated than again a new enemy or ancient dark force will bring unbalance to the force with Luke (Or Skywalker/Solo Offspring) have to re-balance the force.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Internal balance will still be a theme. The newer characters will face that challenge. A larger aspect like with Palpatine won't be an issue. Palpatine's actions in the PT, the way he manipulated people and events in order to become Emperor, that is what disrupts the balance. A thousand years earlier, the Sith just fought their way in and took control. Palpatine got the Republic to hand him control and that is the imbalance.
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  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Actually, when the chosen one came onto the scene, the Force was unbalanced. The Force only seemed to be balanced by the time the chosen one had ( corporeally ) died.
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  19. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    Sort of talking to myself here:

    The idea of balance in the Force is... odd. The Force is created and maintained by life. The Dark Side has been portrayed as both a natural phenomenon (the Dagobah cave) and, really, how the Force is used by those with bad intent. The inherent danger is that the Force makes everything easy, so it's easy to abuse. And abusing it makes the user lose sight of their humanity. But, again, that's a problem with the Force user, not the Force itself.

    So, the idea of balance just seems odd because, well, it's like blaming the lake for someone drowning rather than that person's lack of swimming ability. Not to mention that, aside from a few lines from Yoda saying it's hard to see what's going on due to Palpatine's active influence, we don't get a clear idea of what the imbalance means. Jedi aren't becoming evil by the score, they're not losing their ability to fight or perform Force-enabled activities (telekinesis is all the rage), etc. Nothing is happening that would make us sit up and take notice.

    I'd be on board with the idea if the balance/lack of balance actually had some form of on-screen manifestation. Something that would make me go, "Oh no, the Force is imbalanced again! Someone needs to fix it!" But the way balance/imbalance has been portrayed so far leaves me cold. They're essentially throw away lines of dialogue because we don't have any balanced Force vs. imbalanced Force comparison to make. Even Anakin has prognostication when Yoda does not, so the idea as shown is a mix of weak and pointless IMO.

    More compelling, I think, is the idea of Jedi having to find balance within themselves. That's the lesson Luke learned and his father failed to learn, and it's universal to our species. Anger, rage, even hate aren't bad in and of themselves. They can and have been used to make positive change. The question, as always, is how far to go, what lines to cross. And that plays into Star Wars' fantasy roots. Temptation can be a powerful subject, and there are many ways it can manifest. And all, IMO, are far more interesting than some nebulous idea of an energy source being imbalanced in a way that's never clearly explained or demonstrated.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The films don't go into detail, no, but they do drop hints. Yoda talks about how hard the dark side is to see, when it comes to using the Force to sense the future. He later talks about how the shroud of the dark side has fallen now that the war has begun. But how Lucas describes it is the natural order of things which is that good and evil are forever locked in struggle, with the lines between good and evil being distinct. These lines blur and balance is lost. Anakin represents that because he wants to do good, but he doesn't want to make a sacrifice to achieve that. His motives aren't pure. Just about everyone has a personal reason for their actions and not for the common, greater good. When too much of that is going on, the Force is imbalanced. Only when these things start to change does balance return.
  21. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 3
    The thought of the Prophecy of the Chosen One being revisited in the ST never crossed my mind. I always figured it was fulfilled (as Lucas says), and Anakin did the fulfilling part. So the Prophecy is done, nothing more about it. I guess I just always saw the prophecy as something for that time, not a continuing event that gets dragged out even after it's been fulfilled.

    As far as I know the prophecy doesn't state that the Force can't be out of balance again, or the Sith were destroyed for all of eternity. It's merely a prophecy for the time of the Chosen One (Anakin's Life), and it's now over.

    At least I hope it's over...
  22. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, internal balance will be a theme. What, then, is happening throughout the galaxy in the ST? All is calm and at peace in the galaxy? Perhaps the Force is balanced and the ST Jedi need only establish peace and justice (a New Republic/Jedi Order) in the face of a new threat.

    However, if the Force is left balanced at the end of ROTJ, then the Jedi have already won their most significant and important victory against the forces of evil and we, as the audience, are deprived of any doubt as to whether the heroes will succeed or not. With the Force balanced in Episode VI, the end of Episode IX is assured. Presumably we've seen the worst of what the villains can do in Episode VI. All this would strip the ST writers of an important doubt factor that heightens the drama. The last thing a writer wants to give up when already forced to justify sequels to a fully resolved story. Will our new heroes survive? Of course they will, the Force is balanced. In TESB, Lucas/Kasdan has Yoda inform Obi-Wan that "There is another". The purpose of the line was to suggest to the audience that the writers could kill him off in the end; keeping their attention by heightening the drama. That's a part of the SW storytelling lexicon, as is changing, altering and flipping our perceptions of character roles and story elements we thought we understood.

    For the ST, I vouch for progressing the story by changing what we thought we knew about the I-VI story and heightening the drama by creating the greatest amount of doubt in the ability of our heroes to overcome a seemingly insurmountable problem. Only then will they be worthy of our acclaim. I don't want to see them 'cleaning up' the problem after it was mostly resolved by Anakin. That seems too soft for the ending of the trilogy of trilogies.[face_peace]
  23. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
    star 4
    I agree. Something outside the circle of what was accomplished in ROTJ. That should stay finished. think of the PT and the OT as a circle and whatever afflicts the heroes in the ST should be a bigger circle around all of that. It can encompass the smaller circle but started earlier, was misinterpreted, and goes beyond but does NOT undo what was accomplished by Anakin.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    There were minor threats during the years between Darth Bane and Darth Sidious. The Hutt crime syndicate, space pirates and small scale threats on worlds like Naboo. So there was always something for the Jedi and the local security forces to handle. It was only with the rise of Palpatine that a full scale war erupted. Whatever the situation is, it probably doesn't really start until Episode VII, or in the lead in to it. If it's like the old EU where there's an Imperial remnant that's out there, then we can see someone trying to pick up the pieces and restart the war.


    The doubt in victory will be whatever the threat is, being serious enough for the heroes of the Rebellion to once again take up arms in defense of the galaxy. Something like a new clone army, Mandalorian warriors, a large battle fleet that's been built up in secret. These kinds of things will be at stake. To prevent an undoing of what was accomplished at Endor.
  25. locketcoket Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2014
    Think about it. I was watching the Sith Apperntice parody when I came up with this. Vader said he wasn't weak like Dooku and could overthrow his master. Get it? He overthrow Palpatine thus becoming the master, but dying soon afterword. Thus the Sith shall be reborn more powerful then ever like the Sith'ari prophecy says leaving room for Luke to be able to truly fulfill the Chosen One prophecy by the end of the trilogy


    Think About It
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