Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Immortiss, Aug 26, 2013.
Ah Joey Arnold still haunts the minds of users. Good. Goooood.
Here's an Option 4: perhaps the prophesy has been totally misunderstood from the beginning.
In ROTS, Mace Windu and Yoda thought that they had been mistaken at Anakin being the one to balance the force, which was seemingly confirmed with the rise of the Empire. Then we get the OT, where we are led to believe that Anakin did fulfill the prophesy by killing the Emperor.
But what if Windu and Yoda were right all along (at least initally)? I'm not saying Anakin being redeemed wasn't critical to the story, but what if killing the Emperor unleashed a more evil foe? (A historical parallel would be the defeat of the Nazis unleashing the atomic bomb and rise of the Soviet Union). This more evil foe could then compel the Force itself to finally bring out the prophesy-fulfilling one.
In this case, Anakin initiates a chain of events that will ultimately bring balance to the force, but is not the one to fulfill the prophesy.
They could write something like this, and if well done it could work, but I don't think so. I think at the end of the day, Qui-Gon was always right in Anakin being the chosen one. I doubt we will be told that the prophecy was not fulfilled, and I doubt even more that we will be told that Anakin was not the chosen one.
I think we are more likely to get an "Evil finds a way" explaination for a Sith return in the ST.
I could definitely see that happening as well. It'll depend on Lucas' story treatments and the writers more than anything else.
My only question with the Qui-Gon reasoning is that would he have been able to forsee Anakin being redeemed? In AOTC, he did "witness" the slaying of the sand people, and if he did that, why not intervene when Anakin was further down the dark side path, particularly attacking Mace Windu? A resolution to that would be needed.
I wonder if Jedi Spirit Anakin will able to interfere at one point. Maybe that's something that makes him as the Choses one different then other Jedi. Didn't Ben Kenobi say to Luke when he was going to Bespin that he would not interfere? Was that out of choice or was there no way he could do anything? Maybe Anakin will be able to.
Yes, and I think it was tacit disapproval for Luke's disobedience. Remember Yoda said he had failed both in the cave and confronting Vader when he wasn't ready. They wanted him to listen to the will of the Force, not his own will. Again, friends and attachments are problematic. It's the same lesson when Luke runs after Beru and Owen and Obi-Wan informs him that it was a mistake, that he would have been killed, too, and that the droids would now be in the possession of the Empire.
But it also demonstrates Luke's compassion and loyalty and exposes Old Jedi understanding/thinking as flawed....from a certain point of view.
Its a good thing Luke went to rescue his friends. The guilt of leaving them to die would've broken his spirit. But Yoda was too dumb to understand.
It was probably a good thing Luke went to rescue his friends, it's a bit weird that he tried to do it by himself, as opposed to getting some more rebels to join him. Anyway.
See, this stuff is why I agree with Kreia from KotOR II when she says the Force is evil and it needs to die.
Going off of my previous theory that the ST will be more about the neutral/grey area of the Force, it would be interesting to see a similar twist embedded into the movies...
"Always in motion the future is....." is different than destiny. Qui-Gon may very well have seen Anakins destiny in terms of fulfilling the prophecy, but that doesnt mean that he saw HOW it was done.
I dont think a Jedi's vision are just like watching clips from the movies..
Yes, he witnessed some of Anakins actions, but I dont think he was able to intervene at that time. I would say he was able to contact Yoda when he did because of Yoda's strength in The Force, but couldnt contact anyone else at that time. This is why Yoda had to teach Obi how to chat with Jinn.
Maybe evil is always supposed to win because good is dumb?
If you haven't read the Darth Plagueis novel I highly recommend it. The prologue begins with Palpatine's murder of Plaguies in all of Palpatine's over the top grandiosity in becoming the new Sith Master. Chapter 1 accounts the murder of Darth Tenebrous by his apprentice, Darth Plagueis. The contrast between the two events could not be more interesting and telling.
Not to correct you, but the prologue starts right after Palps takes out Plagueis. The cool part is when the book comes full circle at the end where you get the actual killing.
The dialogue between Tenebrous and Plagueis is very suggestive in terms of the Sith imperative and the necessity of caution in deluding oneself through power and arrogance. Also, the circumstances of Plagueis's elevation was as much his will as it was necessary to accomplish this imperative.
Great book. Would be the best in the lot of proposed standalones. It would feature very few humans, though.
It's probably also worth mentioning that in the cases of the final three Sith Masters of the Bane line, all were murdered by the apprentices not in an epic lightsaber duel or Force battle, but through subversion and/or subterfuge, in which the apprentice caught the Master at a disadvantage or completely unaware, until it was too late. Plagueis killed Tenebrous only after the latter had been mostly buried and severely injured by a cave-in, Sidious slew Plagueis while the latter was sleeping from too much alcohol intake (and nearly being bored to death by his apprentice's speeches), and Sidious was vanquished when Vader tossed the unsuspecting Emperor down the Death Star shaft. Treachery is indeed the way of the Sith. It shouldn't come as any surprise then, that Lucas and the higher ups insisted that Plagueis be killed in a rather anticlimactic way given the great power he yielded, and his obsession with living forever. An end meant to be truly ironic.
As you've mentioned in your last post, Immortiss, it would seem the Master inevitably falls into delusions regarding their own (unlimited) power, which makes them susceptible to arrogance. I have more to say regarding the novel, and I will probably write a more comprehensive review/analysis in the appropriate Lit thread, since I don't want to mention too much EU outside the EU Discussion thread.
If they were to bring Plagueis back, given that his remains were placed within one of Palpatine's spirit urns (according to the guidebook Beware the Sith), it would make sense that Plagueis must "urn" back his title of the ultimate Sith Lord.
I don't expect a film from this. I do have a lot to say about its content. It's going to be pretty long winded, so I have to wait until I have a little more time to get it together.
But yes, great book.
I figure that, if they're going to make a film out of the Plagueis novel, it might work best as an animated film. Or maybe an animated miniseries. Cheaper too, I assume.
I look forward to it. Your insight serves you well.
So in regards to the Chosen One prophecy and Anakin: I've always understood it in a different way. It vaguely says the Chosen One will bring "balance" to the force which if you ask me was something that always seemed way out of wack in the prequel era. Compared to previous regimes like in the Old Republic where there were thousands of both Sith and Jedi, the utter dominance of the Jedi and even extinction of the Sith did not seem like balance. Balance is 50/50. Not a particularly good thing for those who are in current power. When Yoda and Mace talk about how maybe Anakin can do this, there seems to be such blind hope that "balance" will be achieved and little speculation about what that actually might mean. I realize that the force isn't just black and white or light and dark in this case, but one side (however many there may be) seemed to be in an unprecedented position of power which lacked balance during the "extinction" of the sith. I've always thought balance meant a return of the sith as equal rivals to the Jedi.
Now for the sequel trilogy, I hope they go along a grey route where a force user (unlike Palpatine) wants chaos rather than order and exploits both the light and the dark. That kind of moral ambiguity is what Lucas seems to hint at in his brief talks about VII, VIII and IX.
So what do you guys think? Is the prophecy as roses and bunnies or is it something the Jedi may not to see come to fruition?
Balance of the Force, not balance of the Force-users.
But what does that mean? Thats just as if not more ambiguous. What does that mean for the Jedi? My point is that I don't think balance in the force is something that would benefit whoever has a monopoly on force-usage and materialistic power like the Jedi clearly have leading up to the discovery of Anakin. And isn't that kind of the same thing? Balance of the force and of the force-users that is. The way in which the force is being used/nourished/manipulated by beings affects the force itself unless its exclusively some benign thing that has no connection to people in which case a person, Anakin, couldn't affect its balance.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the prophecy "Bring balance to the Force" was synonymous with Force users. That is to say that the Force is a pool of stuff that can be manipulated by either good or evil. Bringing balance means that conduits for the Force are out of balance during the Old Republic because for 1000 years the Sith were almost extinct.
I believe that Anakin was the Chosen One in that he was the one to bring balance to the Force. However, what most people missed was that Anakin wasn't supposed to defeat the Sith as some say he did in ROTJ when he killed the Emperor, BUT Anakin fulfilled the prophecy when he destroyed the Jedi. The Jedi were nearly wiped-out with just a few practitioners left -- Obi-wan and Yoda.
The OT takes place during a time when the Force is in balance. Vader/Sidious and then Obi-wan/Yoda and eventually Luke and Leia. Obi-wan and Yoda of course die, leaving Luke and Leia as the only Force users. Presumably when Luke restores the NJO he puts the Force out of balance again and thus it must go back into balance with the resurrection of the Sith, but in greater numbers.
That's a lot of words to say that the prophecy was mis-interpreted.
I would rather the prophecy not even be dealt with in the ST. I think that arc is complete and to continue it now would take away from the original 6 films. In fact I'm hoping the villain is not the Sith at all. The force is at last in balance and the Jedi are at their strongest. Its time for a new breed of threat the Jedi must overcome.
I posted a video in here somewhere where Lucas states very clearly that bringing balance to the force means Anakin destroying the Sith in ROTJ. Which includes Anakin himself turning back to the light and then killing Palpatine. So, prior to the ST, bringing balance was fairly straightforward; being out of balance meant the Sith were dominating the force in the OT, and basically we saw the force being unbalanced in the PT, which culminated in Anakin's turn and Palpatine's victory.
But now that we have an ST, it means things will have to change a bit. We have a range of possible changes. 1. The Sith return and by merely returning the force is unbalanced again. 2. The Sith return but their return doesn't in and of itself unbalance the Force. Their return threatens to unbalance the force as it did in TPM when their manipulations began to increase and threaten the Jedi. 3. Plagueis novel. This book posits something in addition to what Lucas talks about in the video. It states that the force was unbalanced specifically by actions the Sith took to tip it in their favor. Similar to 2., their return would threaten the force, but this time with a very specific kind of metaphysical attack on the nature of the force itself. Here the force is not tipped merely by destroying the Jedi; in fact, tipping the force seems to actually give them the ability to destroy the Jedi. 4. The Sith are destroyed and can't return. There will be new villains, possibly even different kinds of darkside villains, but they will be different somehow from the Sith.
2. and 3. are my favorite options.
I also think the speculations about the Jedi Order's role in the issue of balance are interesting. But Lucas himself didn't intend for people to read the movies this way. For Lucas balance means the Jedi are dominant and dominant in the use of the light side. This doesn't mean this aspect can't change some in the ST, but it's good to know what the original intention was since it helps us predict the most probable path in the ST. Of course, probability is not certainty.
the question here is... what does "Balance in the Force" means?....
revan achieved that! he was nor a jedi neither a sith... he could use the force as he wanted because he was free...