The Chosen One: Who exactly is the subject of the prophecy?

It struck me a while back that as important as this prophecy is in The Phantom Menace, we never hear much about it. I was always interested in finding out if Lucas had made the wording of the prophecy public through some other source beyond the film (novelization, web site, etc.) Turns out (as many of you probably already know) that there was a prophecy in the early drafts.

"... and in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as The Son of The Suns." -- Journal of the Whills, 3:127

Son of the suns... get it? Tatooine, two suns, Luke the son. Not too hard to figure that one out.

My pet theory has been, since seeing The Phantom Menace, that Anakin is in fact NOT the one spoken of in the prophecy and that the characters in the prequels have made the tragic mistake of thinking so. I still firmly believe that Lucas means for the prophecy to speak of Luke as he's truly the one who brings balance and it's his actions and determination that bring about the end of the Sith. If you think about it, Anakin plays a more significant role in throwing the force out of balance.

The site below brings up some subtle story points that actually support that idea.

http://www.jedinet.com/prequels/fan_scenes/arc6-2001.asp

Interesting read and relevant to discussions reaching across the whole saga. I thought some of you might find it thought-provoking.

 

Regardless of which way you look at it, Anakin is the one who brings balance to the force.
Luke was an important part of that, but Anakin is the chosen one.

-Seldon

 

If it's true that Anakin really is "the chosen one," then there are some real problems with the underlying mechanics of the story in SW.

The prophecy foretells the coming of someone to balance the force. If that's true, one must assume that this figure is emerging into an atmosphere where there is no balance or where a state of chaos prevails. That would be Luke, not Anakin.

The idea that the prophesized one is also the one to bring about the imbalance that he was chosen to correct borders on being ludicrous. That would be the first example I've ever seen of a circular prophecy. "Behold, one shall come to make all things right... but only after he messes them up to begin with." It almost seems comical, some kind of Monty Python-esque twist on prophecies.

If, on the other hand, the prophecy indeed points to Luke, then the idea that the Jedi Council and Qui-Gon Jinn believed mistakenly that Anakin was this figure takes on an air of tragedy--even more so considering that this mistaken belief leads them to training him and making him more powerful. We've seen with the PT films that the Jedi are set in their ways almost to a fault, that they rely maybe too often on science than on their own intuition (i.e., midichlorians, Obi-Wan's puzzle about Kamino), and that they are far from perfect (Yoda's stand-off with Dooku.)

To me, the idea that it's Luke who is prophesized not only makes a lot more sense in the overall story, but it gives a much more satisfying sense of tragedy to the PT films.

 

But Anakin's the one who kills Palpatine. Also, Palpatine's the one putting the Force out of balance, not Anakin. Luke's purpose was to redeem his father, which is why his father was redeemed and destroyed the Sith.

 

Anakin IS the chosen one, you must see it! Think about the string of cosmic coincidences that led Anakin to be standing there, in the DS throne room, with a simple, yet galaxy changing, decision. He can let Luke die, or kill Palpatine. Killing Palpatine brings balance to the Force; however, I don't think Anakin knew this when he chose. Anakin gets excepted into the Order through non-tradition methods because of extenuating circumstances. According to chapter 22 of the Clone Wars, Anakin is promoted to Knight without taking the trials due to extenuating circumstances (the loss of numerous Jedi during the war). He never would have been there at the end of ROTJ without a long string of other events beyond his control. Luke wouldn't have been there either had events revolving around Anakin resolved themselves differently. Luke's role in the prophecy is dependent on his father's fate. If Anakin's fate had been different (e.g. Yoda refused to let Kenobi train Anakin-and would expel him from the order if he did it anyway), then Luke would not have been there at the end to provide Anakin with his chance to bring balance to the Force. However, lets say Luke died on Hoth, then Leia could have been there at the end. Anakin still would have chosen his own offspring over Palpatine, thereby the prophecy holds. If Anakin is not there at the end, then Dooku is there instead. It certainly appears to me that Dooku is just a flunky with no significance to anyone, and would never have killed Palpatine. Since the whole saga is about Anakin, his fall, and redemtion, then it stands to reason he is also the profit that will bring balance to the Force.

 

I think Anakin needs to fall for the prophecy to be fulfilled. The Force, to me, is out of balance because of the Jedi themselves. They have become too arrogant, to comfortable as Jedi and Force users. They are not in touch with the Living Force anymore, as noticed by Qui-Gon being a maverick in the Order. Anakin's role is to sweep the Old Order aside and provide the path for a new Order to be built.

 

Definitely think like that too: I guess the balance is only reached after both the Jedi Council and Old Republic and the Empire are gone. Those factions are two sides of the same "coin", the imbalance in the force: The jedi council is complacent, rigid and out-of-touch, allowing the republic to rot by not being able to literally see the evil before them, ie. Palps and his New Order.
I had my doubt on Anakin or Luke being the Chosen One, but now I see it thusly:
To bring the balance, Anakin had to become a Jedi, fall in love and to the dark side but retain enough himself to be rescued in the end, when he is reminded of who he was by seeing his sibling fighting the dark side. Anakin then finds the power to fullfill his destiny. But it is his destiny, not that of Luke, who is just a good guy, at the right place at the right time.

It is a pity that both the Jedi and Anakin misunderstand what the Chosen One does, but given my above thoughts, perhaps that is inevitable: if they would have been open minded, now of this would have been needed in the first place. Or something.

slight tangent:
In the OT (but maybe that's just from the novelisations of it?) I got the impression that some of the imperial officers really disliked the bureaucracy and hypocracy at the end of the republic: okay they went a bit far with the changing, but it wasn't all good before. If the whole population of the rebuplic were against the New Order they could have prevented it which I guess won't happen in RotS as ANH comes after it
(How to prevent? see Oekrainia last year, and now in Kirgizia: no way you can stop that many people protesting, but they do need to be more than 1% of the population which might be a bit steep)

 

Yeah. To add to that, I really don't think it is the Sith that are unbalancing the Force. There had been Sith for thousands of years and they hadn't unbalanced the Force before. I think it was the change in the Jedi Order's attitute towards themselves and the Force that brought the Force out of balance.

One example that I can think of it their attitude to non-attachment. Why is that if the Jedi prohibit attachment, Luke was purposely left to be raised with family? I think that the policy of unattachement made the Jedi arrogant and feeling superior to the masses since they are shielded and away from people. Luke, by having that experience, is more humble and thinks more like a "normal" person. For him, the Force is something special, not to be missused or misspent. For a Jedi of the Old Order, the Force is a tool to be used whenever they want. That's what brought the Force out of balance.

 

To add to that, I really don't think it is the Sith that are unbalancing the Force. There had been Sith for thousands of years and they hadn't unbalanced the Force before.

But it's all in figurative terms so I don't know if being that literal is the right way to look at it. The Jedi consistently refer to evil or destructive events as "a disturbance" in the Force, which implies that times of peace or tranquility represent a state of balance. From that perspective, the only time one can see things as off-balance, would be after the eradication of the Jedi (not a spoiler, btw... Obi-Wan talks about it in ANH.) Therefore, I contend that we enter the story in TPM in a state of balance and it is Anakin who brings about the state of imbalance.

I mean, if we were to take thing literally, the only time there is real balance to the force, is the period between ROTS and ANH when there are two Sith (Vader, Emperor) and two Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda.) I have a hard time applying the term "balanced" to a period in which the good side is in exile and the bad side is out blowing away planets full of innocent people and bringing down entire branches of the old Republic.

 

I think Spike_Spiegel might have meant that yeah, the Sith are evil, but they do not, in themselves, cause the imbalance in the force. That imbalance really has more to do with how the Old Jedi Order turned out.

Which is what I intended to convey with my post above as well

The Jedi Council may think different, but they are not without flaws, so maybe they just misunderstand the prophecy as they just cannot see they are part of the problem themselves.

 

What he said. ^^^^

 

I talk about this in my post (more shameless self-agrandizement) "what was old is new again".
It is Anakin 'Son of the Suns' Skywalker.

 

The Sith do cause the balance, it will be explained in RotS - but let's just say that, obviously, Palpatine isn't just your ordinary Sith Lord.

The Sith don't live through the force, they corrupt it - The Jedi, however, do not. Their order may have grown stale, their significance may have lost it's touch - but they have no play in causing any disruption to the balance of the force. It's in fact easily the other way around, the Sith very blatantly use the force as tools - they try corrupting their futures to see it fit, whereas the Jedi (except for once again, Anakin) trust in the flow of the force. The Sith call on the force for thunderrains of destruction to erupt from their hands - whereas the Jedi let the actual force only flow through them.

The only Jedi who can be seen as contributing to this disturbance is, ironically, Anakin himself.

Slaughtering the Jedi was never ment to happen, neither was him turning - that was solely his own choice. But, again, Episode III will cover all of this

- O_F

 

Spike Spiegal...good points...

In MO,

Luke can not be the Chosen one. The prophecy said that the Chosen One would be made from the Force itself, as in NO FATHER Conceivng the mother...okay...Luke was the son of Padme and Anakin...so that wouldn't work...

In my belief Anakin WAS the Chosen one, but did not fullfill the prophecy, because of these reasons:

1. In the ROTS trailer, Obi-Wan states "You WERE the Chosen One!" Foreshadowing, perhaps?
2. He chose the dark path, and it ruined him and the Prophecy...

Sooo...in my opinion, the prophecy never FULLY came true. In a fanfic I'm working on, there is a new Jedi that IS the Chosen One and brings balance to the Force, which in my opinion means that there is still darkness, but it is not overshadowing the Light side of the Force, as it did in ROTS to ROTJ...and so on and so on...

I agree that it is a mix of Sith and Jedi that balance out and both are needed to have the balance...

 

When Obi-Wan says "You were the Chosen One!", there is no emphasis on "were" as you put it. What he said has the same meaning as "You were supposed to be the Chosen One!", meaning that Obi-Wan is saying this out of the pain he's feeling for everything Anakin's done. If you knew the rest of the quote, you'd see that everything he's saying is due to disbelief and pain caused by Anakin's fall. He's not saying that Anakin somehow lost the title or his destiny, basically he feels that Anakin wasn't the Chosen One, because how could the Chosen One fall? But, in the end, Anakin was the Chosen One, as he destroyed the Sith, and the Force was brought back into balance with Luke serving as that balance. The perfect balance between dark and light. He has attachments to people, which the original Jedi forbade. It makes sense. Luke will establish a new Jedi Order with Jedi like him, and everything will be okay.

 

Ogmios22188: But Anakin's the one who kills Palpatine. Also, Palpatine's the one putting the Force out of balance, not Anakin. Luke's purpose was to redeem his father, which is why his father was redeemed and destroyed the Sith.

How is that balancing the Force?

Balance implies equal amounts of the Light Side and the Dark Side. Killing Palpatine and his apprentice leads to an abundance of the "Light Side" (Jedi) and no "Dark Side" (Sith), leading to an imbalance.

Spike_Spiegel: I think Anakin needs to fall for the prophecy to be fulfilled. The Force, to me, is out of balance because of the Jedi themselves. They have become too arrogant, to comfortable as Jedi and Force users. They are not in touch with the Living Force anymore, as noticed by Qui-Gon being a maverick in the Order. Anakin's role is to sweep the Old Order aside and provide the path for a new Order to be built.

I beg to differ. Take a look at the NJO - Mara, Kyp, Corran, even Jaina and Anakin - and tell me that they're less arrogant than the OJO. Also, I'm not clear on how arrogance has anything to do with balancing the Force....

One example that I can think of it their attitude to non-attachment. Why is that if the Jedi prohibit attachment, Luke was purposely left to be raised with family? I think that the policy of unattachement made the Jedi arrogant and feeling superior to the masses since they are shielded and away from people. Luke, by having that experience, is more humble and thinks more like a "normal" person.

Once again, I have to disagree. While I don't like the rule, I can see why the Jedi would have such a rule. The Jedi's commitment should first be to the Force. When you enter family into the equation, there inevitably will be problems: your daughter turns into a Sith. Are you going to do what is right or are you going to not stop her because she is your daughter? This is an issue that, obviously, everybody -- not just Jedi -- have to deal with, but Jedi have great power that, if misused, can lead to disasters.

For him, the Force is something special, not to be missused or misspent. For a Jedi of the Old Order, the Force is a tool to be used whenever they want. That's what brought the Force out of balance.

Am I wrong for thinking of my eyes as a tool to be used whenever I want? Also, can you tell me how why you think Luke thinks differently about the Force as opposed to the Jedi of the OJO? (Just curious.)

Depa

 

To tell you the truth, I was not considering the EU when writing that. I was just looking at it from a movies only perspective. You're right absolutely right with your EU examples.

I think that arrogance is a big factor because it leads to a missuse of the Force and an attitude of superiority. From what I've seen in the PT, the Jedis used to Force a lot, too much in my opinion. Why flip around like a fly when fighting if a more controlled style with less Force use can be equally effective (ie Dooku)?

The Jedi of the Old Order are trained to use the Force since they were babies. While this might give them more control, it also makes the Force too familiar and too second nature to them. A Jedi who is trained as an adult, like Luke, might see the Force as something special only to be used in special moments or when something really warrants it.

I think Luke restrains himself more in the use of the Force than the Old Order. His fighting style could be interpreted this way. Its not flashy, it doesn't use the Force more than absolutely necessary.

I know my arguments have huge gaps on them and you are invited to rip them apart to shreds. Also, take in mind I'm not thinking EU here, just moviewise, although feel free to use the EU if you want (as long as you state it as EU, just like you've been doing thus far)

 

Spike: To tell you the truth, I was not considering the EU when writing that. I was just looking at it from a movies only perspective. You're right absolutely right with your EU examples.

Excellent. I was worried there for a little while that you thought the NJO was more "Jedi-like" than OJO.

I think that arrogance is a big factor because it leads to a missuse of the Force and an attitude of superiority. From what I've seen in the PT, the Jedis used to Force a lot, too much in my opinion.

I don't know about this. That's like saying you use your eyes too much or that you use your ears too much. I see the Force as similar to the rest of the senses that humans have. Blind people cannot see, but nobody accuses people who aren't blind of using their eyes too much. And that's how I tend to think of the Force.

Why flip around like a fly when fighting if a more controlled style with less Force use can be equally effective (ie Dooku)?

Because, IMHO, each lightsaber-style has its own advantages and disadvantages. Some people find one style better suited to them than other styles depending on their personalities.

Depa

 

Depa Billaba: Good point, the NJO in EU. I'm not very well versed in that, but from what I read of it I have to say: I think that they fall into the same error that the Old JO did: overuse of the force as if it's only another type of senses, which you would indeed be silly not to use.

The OT Joda and Obi Wan do seem to have an attitude of constraining obvious overuse of the force, not too "take the easy way out". So from the contrast with PT it would seem that clearly, Joda and Obi Wan had some kind of revelation as to the true meaning/nature of the force, and perhaps of what the sought balance actually is.

Okay, perhaps all the above is something for a thread: What does the balance that is mentioned actually refer to. The original question of thisseems to be rather unanimously answered with: Anakin, Duh.

 

Balance is brought to the Force when Anakin kills Palpatine, because the only person left now is Luke. Luke is the balance between Light and Dark, which is why the Jedi and Sith fail, and Luke triumphs.

 

Anakin brings balance to the Force.

Luke brings balance to Anakin.

I am not saying that Luke is the Chosen One by any means. All I am saying is that just as Anakin serves as a mediator between Life and the Force, Luke brought Anakin Skywalker, the good man which had been destroyed, back to Life from the Death of the Dark Side. In that way, Luke served as a mediator between Anakin and the Light.

 

"I think Anakin needs to fall for the prophecy to be fulfilled."

Absolutly right, Spike_Spiegel.

Not only was it his destiny as the Chosen One to submit to the Dark Side and be cut off from the Living Force for a time, it was necessary that he might defeat the Darkness from within for all time.

I agree also that the Jedi have submitted to the Dark Side unkowingly, but would say that the Dark Side itself, not the Jedi or the Sith, that is the imbalance. It was therefore the purpose of the Chosen One not only to destroy the Sith, but also the Jedi.

Destroying both orders is not what causes balance, however. He defetes the Dark Side by returning to the Light. Only after his true victory is achieved does he destroy the Emperor.

 

What ^^he^^ said^, absolutely, I think.

 

DarthUncle: The OT Joda and Obi Wan do seem to have an attitude of constraining obvious overuse of the force, not too "take the easy way out". So from the contrast with PT it would seem that clearly, Joda and Obi Wan had some kind of revelation as to the true meaning/nature of the force, and perhaps of what the sought balance actually is.

We are actually shown very little of Ben's and Yoda's personal lives, so I can't say whether they "overuse" or "underuse" Force. However, I don't understand why it is important that people curb their uses of the Force. Being able to use the Force is, IMHO, much like being able to see. We certainly wouldn't tell people who can see that they shouldn't use their eyes so much, so I don't see why Jedi should not use the Force as much as they want.

Rev: Good point! How did the Jedi unknowingly submit to the Dark Side?

Depa

 

I never thought of it that way, good call inkswamp, I am also confused at how could it of been Anikin to bring balance to the Force, but I have learned just too except it and not ask to many questions