The Chosen One

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Xenobi, Feb 9, 2003.

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  1. Xenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    But if Anakin would not have helped the emperor become powerful....then all the Jedi could have beaten (I think...logically)
    so what is the use of Anakin helping the sith and then destroying them? If ist was not for him in the first place... nothing would have happend... so that is why i think that bringing balalnce to the force is not killing all the sith..
    perhaps George Lucas was not really sure how his character brought balance to the force.
  2. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    Of course Lucas is sure about the prophecy and the character Anakin Skywalker. He wrote it so I'm sure he knew what he is going to do with it because this is his story.
  3. SuperJediStyle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2003
    star 4
    But if Anakin would not have helped the emperor become powerful....then all the Jedi could have beaten (I think...logically)
    so what is the use of Anakin helping the sith and then destroying them? If ist was not for him in the first place... nothing would have happend... so that is why i think that bringing balalnce to the force is not killing all the sith..
    perhaps George Lucas was not really sure how his character brought balance to the force.


    You must be watching a different set of movies than i am ...because from what i see ...Palps is already very very powerful...without any help from Anakin thus far. At the end of AOTC ...he basically controls both of the droid army and clone army ...has control of the the senate, and has the Death Stars plans. His gained powers multiplied with his power of the darkside have diminished the jedi's ability to use the force. If he can rid the galaxy of all jedi ...he can easily squash the rebellion and control not only the entire galaxy ...but the force as well. There would be no force users left ...who would use it for the sake of good. The jedi are overwhelmed and weakened by all of his power. That is ...until ROTJ...when Vader turns back into the Anakin Qui-Gon wanted him to be...and kills Palps. No more Emperor...no more Vader ...no more Sith ...no more darkside. The balance is brought back to the force.
  4. Xenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    But why is not having 2 sith bringing balance to the force....
    all the Jedi could have beaten the Two Sith.....
    If Anakin had not done the Jedi Purge then not so many Jedi would have died in the first place and they would have beaten the 2 sith.
    The force was balanced before Anakin came...then when he came he helped the emperor kill so many Jedi and unbalanced the force....so how was he the chosen one if he only caused a long time of pain for the Galaxy and then got things back to normal..it was normal before....
    I don't think he emperor would have gotten to far without the help of VADER

    that is why i think that he was not chosen to bring balance to the force by killing all the Siths... I think he brough balance to the force by ending all of the Jedi and the Sith....another theory is that he brought balance to the force by causing the old Jedi order to be destroyed (and cause the new one to be made) The old Jedi order had many things wrong with it so he balanced by causing a new order to be made which is more balanced.
  5. SuperJediStyle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2003
    star 4
    No no no no no. Things were out of whack before Qui-Gon even discovered Anakin. The Emperor already had his plan in effect. He was making himself so powerful ...not only in the force ...but in authority power as well as a massive army. The jedi would have been overwhelmed regardless who his side kick was. It just made him all the more powerful that he was able to coax the chosen one to the darkside with him. As long as there were evil force users ....there was no balance.
  6. Xenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    so you are saying the force became unbalanced when the emperor took over and ruled the galaxy???
    If this is the case then there why did Mace say that Qui Gon was refering to the one who would bring balance to the force if the force was not even unbalanced when he said that...even if it was unbalanced when he said that..the prophacy must have been made a long time before that ...so the prophacy was made when the force was already unbalanced
  7. SuperJediStyle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2003
    star 4
    I'm sure the force was unbalanced when the prophecy came about. It stated that someday the force would be balanced ...which leads me to believe that it had long been unbalanced.
  8. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    I think I am seeing this a little different.

    Anakin is the choosen one who is to balance the force this is true. How does he do this? First by destroying the lopsided presence of Jedi which created a tilt to the lightside of the force. 1000's of years of peace (or war for that matter) is not a balanced situation.

    The second stage of the prophecy is fulfilled when he destroys Sideous, and thus bringing both sides of the force to its foundations.

    I think that both of these actions are needed to allow the force to be truly balanced, allowing the universe to start over (atleast as far as the force is concerned).

    So, to sum it up. If the Jedi destroyed both sith, there would still be an unbalance in the force leaning toward the lightside. If Sideous and Vader ruled indefinatly they would have the force unbalanced in their favor. The only way to bring true balance would be to destroy ( as best as possible) both followings of the force.

    We still have the question of Luke hanging around. I think that Luke is of the lightside, but as seen in the movies he does understand the darkside and has been close to falling over the line. I think this is the closest to a balanced situation that we can have.
  9. AnakinWisler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin is defiantly the Chosen One...not Luke!
  10. Xenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    You have a good idea DArth-Dispicable...that would explain why Anakin is the choosen one
  11. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "You must be watching a different set of movies than i am ...because from what i see ...Palps is already very very powerful...without any help from Anakin thus far."

    Palpatine does become powerful, but only through lies and deceit. Except for outright mind control (versus simple propoganda and brainwashing) and predicting the future, many of the things he does to gain power are within the reach of normal people. While he does accumulate a great deal of power, it is built upon a very delicate house of cards, subject to numerous events that must take place to reach a desired end.

    If Palpatine were truly powerful, he would have simply walked into the Senate and taken control of Coruscant. Clearly, his powers have limits, and there are a great many hoops to jump through to achieve his ends.

    A large part of his "power" rests in the assumption of his power by others. Otherwise, why bother hiring Anakin to be his "muscle"? Simple, because Palpatine is simply the "brains" of this operation, and he gets others to do his "bidding" (trade federation, Separatists, Maul, Dooku, Kaminoans, etc.) Without them, his plans would have been for naught.


    "We still have the question of Luke hanging around. I think that Luke is of the lightside, but as seen in the movies he does understand the darkside and has been close to falling over the line. I think this is the closest to a balanced situation that we can have. "

    But you are only stuck with this odd situation if you believe Luke to be the Chosen One. As such, you are left with a "Final Destination" ending, where Luke and Leia are hunted down by the Force until all Force-users are dead. Thus the happy ending of ROTJ is a fantasy, as far as the Skywalkers are concerned. ;)

    If balance=no Sith, then this situation is remedied when Vader (Sith turns into Anakin (Jedi - hence, the "Return of the Jedi"), and the Emperor is killed. The Sith are all gone, and the Light side of the Force prevails. No loose ends. :)
  12. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Palpatine does become powerful, but only through lies and deceit. Except for outright mind control (versus simple propoganda and brainwashing) and predicting the future, many of the things he does to gain power are within the reach of normal people. While he does accumulate a great deal of power, it is built upon a very delicate house of cards, subject to numerous events that must take place to reach a desired end.

    I see your point, but I don?t think it?s strictly true. Bear in mind that the Jedi are ?blinded? by the Dark Side of the Force. There?s things going on that they don?t know about- but until they discover about the clones in AOTC, they don?t know that they don?t know, if you see what I mean. Like the Jedi Librarian, who is convinced that is she can?t see something in her archives, then it isn?t there. Likewise, until AOTC, the Jedi think that if they can?t see something through the Force, then it isn?t there. And it?s not until Obi Wan literally gets a guided tour that they realise what?s been going on.

    As far as I can see, this whole ?clouding? thing can only be the work of the Sith, something out of the reach of normal people that normal people wouldn?t know about. ?Only a dark lord of the Sith knows of our weakness.?

    >>>>If Palpatine were truly powerful, he would have simply walked into the Senate and taken control of Coruscant. Clearly, his powers have limits, and there are a great many hoops to jump through to achieve his ends.

    Well, at some point I think he?s going to have to do pretty much just that. Between Episodes II and IV, the Republic is going to become recognised as the Empire, and Yoda and Obi Wan are going to be forced into hiding, the Jedi are going to be scattered. If Obi Wan and Yoda are unable to face the Emperor, and are training Luke to face him instead, the only logical reasoning behind this is that the Emperor has already shown that he is more powerful than they are.

    >>>>A large part of his "power" rests in the assumption of his power by others. Otherwise, why bother hiring Anakin to be his "muscle"? Simple, because Palpatine is simply the "brains" of this operation, and he gets others to do his "bidding" (trade federation, Separatists, Maul, Dooku, Kaminoans, etc.) Without them, his plans would have been for naught.

    Bear in mind the dialogue on Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back, where Obi Wan tells Luke not to underestimate the power of the Emperor?

    I?d go so far as to say that in terms of the Jedi in the prequels, the opposite is true. It seems that the jedi are suspicious of Palpatine (from the look Yoda gives him near the start of the film, and what Obi Wan says to Anakin about him following the prejudices of the Senators etc.), but I think they simply don?t see him as anything other than another self-serving politician, no different from many of the others in the Senate.

    It?s because they have this assumption that when the Sith appear, they will be all lightsabers and lightning that they don?t suspect Palpatine at this stage- they assume that there?s nothing special about him, and certainly not that he is actually an incredibly powerful Sith Lord.
  13. DEEPBLUE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2003
    star 1
    - As far as I can see, this whole -clouding- thing can only be the work of the Sith, something out of the reach of normal people -

    this condition was covered in the prior post.

    - Except for outright mind control...many of the things he does to gain power are within the reach of normal people -

    many, not -all-.


    - the only logical reasoning behind this is that the Emperor has already shown that he is more powerful than they are. -

    but the -nature- of his power and how it is implemented is the issue. [interrogative]does palpatine show his true force powers in the pt, or are the jedi subjugated solely by the clonetroopers and vader[/interrogative]

    for example, president bush is showing iraq - indeed, the entire world - how powerful he is, yet he has not set one foot into iraq, much less out of this country. his troops are doing all the work for him. obviously, president bush is very powerful based on the strength of his armed forces, [interrogative]but were he to attack saddam hussein in hand-to-hand combat, how long would he last[/interrogative]

    palpatine may not show his true nature -until- return of the jedi. in a new hope, grand moff tarkin speaks of vader being the last of the jedi order, when the audience knows that he is a sith - and perhaps never even became a jedi in the first place. furthermore, grand moff tarkin makes no mention of the emperor's affiliation with the sith. from this, it could be concluded that the emperor's true nature is not even shown to the highest ranking imperial officer in the empire. the emperor's use of force lightning may still come as a surprise to a future audience watching the saga in episodic order.


    - Bear in mind the dialogue on Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back, where Obi Wan tells Luke not to underestimate the power of the Emperor -

    bear in mind that obi-wan does not mention what this power is, which would indicate two possibilities

    1) obi-wan knows the emperor's powers, but does not or can not divulge for whatever reason - i.e. because of the prophecy. this may or may not be shown in ep.iii -

    2) obi-wan does not -know- the emperor's powers, which is substantiated by the fact that tarkin doesn't appear to know. also it does not make sense for obi-wan and yoda to teach luke all these skills to confront the emperor, including warnings about his powers, and then omit crucial information about the exact nature of these powers.

  14. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>does palpatine show his true force powers in the pt, or are the jedi subjugated solely by the clonetroopers and vader

    I find it hard to believe that Yoda and Obi Wan were hiding from stormtroopers, but were happy to send Luke off to face them.

    The only logical explanation for the events of the OT is that they knew Anakin was the only one who could kill the Emperor.

    >>>palpatine may not show his true nature -until- return of the jedi. in a new hope, grand moff tarkin speaks of vader being the last of the jedi order, when the audience knows that he is a sith - and perhaps never even became a jedi in the first place.

    He's a Jedi in AOTC... Not a Jedi knight, but he is a Jedi. (He says so in the confession scene!)

    >>> furthermore, grand moff tarkin makes no mention of the emperor's affiliation with the sith. from this, it could be concluded that the emperor's true nature is not even shown to the highest ranking imperial officer in the empire. the emperor's use of force lightning may still come as a surprise to a future audience watching the saga in episodic order.

    Or it could be concluded that Tarkin knows that Vader is an ex-Jedi; the Emperor was never a part of the Jedi "religion."

    >>>bear in mind that obi-wan does not mention what this power is, which would indicate two possibilities

    1) obi-wan knows the emperor's powers, but does not or can not divulge for whatever reason - i.e. because of the prophecy. this may or may not be shown in ep.iii -

    2) obi-wan does not -know- the emperor's powers, which is substantiated by the fact that tarkin doesn't appear to know. also it does not make sense for obi-wan and yoda to teach luke all these skills to confront the emperor, including warnings about his powers, and then omit crucial information about the exact nature of these powers.


    Well, put the line from ESB into context.

    "Do not underestimate the Emperor's power. I don't want to lose you the way I lost Vader."

    Seems to imply that Obi Wan knew what he was talking about...
  15. DEEPBLUE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2003
    star 1
    - I find it hard to believe that Yoda and Obi Wan were hiding from stormtroopers, but were happy to send Luke off to face them. -

    - The only logical explanation for the events of the OT is that they knew Anakin was the only one who could kill the Emperor. -

    but this eventuality is still covered by my statements. attack of the clones clearly shows that the jedi are no match for an overwhelming force. had it not been for yoda bringing the clonetroopers, mace, obi-wan, anakin, and padme would have been killed. considering that yoda and obi-wan are the -last- two remaining jedi, the probability of them defeating darth vader and the emperor are close to zero.

    as for your second point, at no time did i state that anakin -wasn't- the chosen one. however, whatever knowledge yoda and obi-wan -may- have had about the prophecy may have had some influence on their choice to hide and train luke. this is something that remains to be seen -presumably- in episode iii.

    perhaps their choice to send luke had something to do with the fact that luke, being anakin's son, would have a chance to get close to vader - so that he may defeat/save vader -, just as vader had a chance to be close to the emperor in order to defeat him. this would be another parallel between father and son - giving the jedi an opportunity to come face to face with his sith apprentice. otherwise, to go against the bulk of the empire itself -stormtroopers, star destroyers, death stars- would be a losing situation in the long run.


    - Or it could be concluded that Tarkin knows that Vader is an ex-Jedi; the Emperor was never a part of the Jedi "religion." -

    either way, tarkin is still not aware of their actual affiliation. i believe this is intentional.

    - "Do not underestimate the Emperor's power. I don't want to lose you the way I lost Vader."

    Seems to imply that Obi Wan knew what he was talking about... -

    but you still miss the point. obi-wan does not tell luke -how- he lost vader. [interrogative] don't you think this would be good information for luke to know [/interrogative]

    obi-wan doesn't even -imply- to luke what the emperor's powers are, unless you consider -losing- a jedi a force power. this action simply does not compute.

    it's clear in the pt that palpatine is taking a peculiar and private interest in anakin, both in his ending comment in the phantom menace, his meeting with anakin in attack of the clones, and anakin's comments about -someone should make the senators agree- line with padme. palpatine is slowly transforming anakin. unfortunately, padme and obi-wan are writing these comments and behaviors off as youthful impetuesness, and not recognizing them for the warning signs that they are. anakin's change to darth vader will come as a complete surprise to obi-wan and yoda.



  16. byrdnest Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2001
    star 1
    the thing to remember with all mythology is once the son becomes the father they are no longer the son. meaning the christ figure. anakin may have been the chosen one but free will got in his way. once he had a son he became something else. it was not his job anymore to save the universe-- it became his son's.
  17. Han_Jabba Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Episode I: TPM - R2-D2 fixes the shields on Amidala's ship which let's them make it to Tatooine where they meet up with Anakin.

    Episode II: AoTC - R2-D2 saves Padme from a molten death in the droid factory. Then later Padme (who's still alive) confesses to Anakin that she's in love with him. Which leads to them getting married.

    Episode III: ??? - R2-D2 singlehandedly helps Padme give birth to the twins. (This is still in the works.)

    Episode IV: ANH - R2-D2 is sent on a mission to get General Kenobi. But instead ends up at the Lars moisture farm where he meets up with Luke. (Coincidence? I think not!) This sets the wheels in motion for our next intallment. Which brings us to...

    Episode V: TESB - R2-D2 fixes the hyper drive on the Millenium Falcon allowing our heroes, more importantly Luke, live to fight another day.

    And finally...

    Episode VI: RoTJ - R2-D2, working undercover as a waiter on Jabba's sail barge, helps Luke escape the Saarlac Pit debocle. Luke then goes off to face Vader and the Emperor.

    Of course, it's very important that Vader kills Palpatine and Luke was there too... Sure they can take the credit. But let's not forget a little droid who was there through thick and thin. He did his job and never asked for much in return.

    I mean no disrespect. But you're all wrong. The chosen one is R2-D2!

    So there.

    Later. :D
  18. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "the thing to remember with all mythology is once the son becomes the father they are no longer the son. meaning the christ figure. anakin may have been the chosen one but free will got in his way. once he had a son he became something else. it was not his job anymore to save the universe-- it became his son's."

    While Lucas has certainly used mythology (as well as other classic sources), he is by no means bound to it fully. Luke enables Anakin to reclaim his "soul" and defeat The Emperor. Luke assists in saving the universe, but he himself was not entirely responsible for it. Had it only been between Luke and The Emperor face-to-face, Luke would have been toast.

    "The chosen one is R2-D2! "

    I stand corrected. [face_laugh]
  19. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    I must ammend my theory in light of new evidence. I will have to support the R2 theory.
  20. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>but this eventuality is still covered by my statements. attack of the clones clearly shows that the jedi are no match for an overwhelming force. had it not been for yoda bringing the clonetroopers, mace, obi-wan, anakin, and padme would have been killed. considering that yoda and obi-wan are the -last- two remaining jedi, the probability of them defeating darth vader and the emperor are close to zero.

    That?s all true, but doesn?t explain why Yoda and Obi Wan feel that a Jedi barely out of his teens with a maximum of a year or two of training has a better chance of completing exactly the same task as a 900 year old Jedi master, and that they should wait around just in case R2D2 and C3P0 should one day take him to Obi Wan etc. etc.

    >>>>as for your second point, at no time did i state that anakin -wasn't- the chosen one. however, whatever knowledge yoda and obi-wan -may- have had about the prophecy may have had some influence on their choice to hide and train luke. this is something that remains to be seen -presumably- in episode iii.

    Well, I think that how Luke and Obi Wan end up on Tatooine, and how Yoda ends up on Dagobah should be addressed in III?

    >>>>perhaps their choice to send luke had something to do with the fact that luke, being anakin's son, would have a chance to get close to vader - so that he may defeat/save vader -, just as vader had a chance to be close to the emperor in order to defeat him. this would be another parallel between father and son - giving the jedi an opportunity to come face to face with his sith apprentice.

    My guess is that it will be a realisation of the flaws of the Jedi Order, and trying to make amends for it. There?s a connection between Anakin?s love for his mother, and being unable to save her in AOTC, to his love for his son who he IS able to save in ROTJ. (Along with the fact that his son is the fruit of his forbidden love with Padme?)

    - Or it could be concluded that Tarkin knows that Vader is an ex-Jedi; the Emperor was never a part of the Jedi "religion." -

    >>>either way, tarkin is still not aware of their actual affiliation. i believe this is intentional.

    I?m not sure, myself. I don?t think that the Emperor was originally intended to be the Sith lord and source of evil that he ended up being. Bear in mind that Vader was a subordinate to Tarkin- remember Leia?s ?I might have expected to find you holding his leash??

    >>>>obi-wan does not tell luke -how- he lost vader. [interrogative] don't you think this would be good information for luke to know [/interrogative]

    I?m not sure- given that Luke is relying on the very love that, in a sense, turned Anakin into Vader (judging from AOTC), that might not be too encouraging for him?

    >>>the emperor's use of force lightning may still come as a surprise to a future audience watching the saga in episodic order

    It could be- I have to say, I quite like the idea that ROTJ is the first time we see Palpatine actually getting his hands dirty, so to speak, and using the Dark Side of the Force himself, in an act which directly leads to his destruction by the one conceived by the Force etc. etc., but I think it?s too important to show why Yoda and Obi Wan didn?t confront him themselves, if they do indeed know of his true identity by the time of the OT.

    >>>>Palpatine is slowly transforming anakin. unfortunately, padme and obi-wan are writing these comments and behaviors off as youthful impetuesness, and not recognizing them for the warning signs that they are. anakin's change to darth vader will come as a complete surprise to obi-wan and yoda.

    Seems likely?



    >>>the thing to remember with all mythology is once the son becomes the father they are no longer the son. meaning the christ figure. anakin may have been the chosen one but free will got in his way. once he had a son he became something else. it was not his job anymore to save the universe-- it became his son's.

    A good point, but
    a) If Anakin is ?the son of the suns?, then he always remai
  21. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "If Luke becomes the ?Chosen Other One? then the saga ends up being like Highlander!"

    SO TRUE!!!! [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    There can only be ONE [good Highlander film!] :D
  22. FarmboyKatarn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2001
    star 2
    Ok, so if GL says that Anakin is the Chosen One(who brings balance to the Force), then what is Luke?
    Does anybody know of the Son of the Suns prophecy?

    "...and in the time of greatest despair there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns."-Journal of the Whills, 3:127

    Does this prophecy refer to Anakin or Luke? It could be Anakin, since he was born at a time around the return of the Sith...
    ...But I believe that it is Luke, since he was born at the 'time of greatest despair'--the Jedi Purge. His birth eventually was the catalyst for the balance of the Force. You cannot have one Chosen One without the other.
  23. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    " "...and in the time of greatest despair there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns."

    Well, if Lucas continues to use this wording, I can tell you this much...at no point in the OT is Luke ever referred to as the "Son of the Suns", so make of that what you will.

    That being said, there is ample time in Ep.III for Lucas to call Anakin or Luke the "Son of Suns". Every piece of SW literature and Lucas quotes either states or implies that Anakin is the "Chosen One", and I would agree with this assessment.

    That being said, I would not completely dismiss the possibility of Lucas changing his mind on a key component of his films, and making Luke the "Chosen One" instead. It actually could be argued either way, especially since "The Prophecy" isn't completely known. Besides, people tend to better appreciate Luke as a "regular" hero than Anakin as a "tragic" hero. I sincerely hope Lucas doesn't do this. [face_plain]
  24. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    Lucas has gone on to say many times that Anakin is the Chosen One. He brings balance back to the Force by destroying the Sith Order.
  25. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Every piece of SW literature and Lucas quotes either states or implies that Anakin is the "Chosen One", and I would agree with this assessment."


    Thanks for reading.
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