Saga The Chosen Post: The Prophecy's Importance, Palpatine's Plan To Escape It, & Why Mace Lost the Duel

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darth ladnar, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Arawn_Fenn,

    I agree with your POV, but Son of a Bith and I are having a discussion about interpreting the Saga without considering authorial intent. We're just throwing around different ideas about how the films can be interpreted, ignoring what GL has said or the EU. Doing that opens the films up to possibly multiple valid interpretations as long as each of those interpretations don't contradict what happens in the films themselves.

    BTW, I like the name you chose to give yourself. Sounds like a real SW name. I wish I had put a little more time into thinking about mine. :(
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Apr 17, 2013
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Actually, when I registered I just used the name of my Morrowind character.
  3. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    So I guess my issue is with the meaning of the prophecy itself. The Jedi and the Sith clearly have their own interpretations of the prophecy - the Jedi want to make sure it's fulfilled, the Sith want to make sure it is prevented from coming to fruition.

    I tend to think both parties had it wrong. That, or the prophecy is complete BS [like many (all?) prophecies in the real world].

    My own personal interpretation of the saga - based on the way the Jedi are portrayed in the PT and the way the OT pans out - is that the "imbalance" was caused by the Jedi as much as the Sith. At some point, the Jedi's buddhist-like philosophy of transencdence became a rigid (and, for humans at least, unnatural) way of life that promotes emotional suppression that will, throughout history, inevitably give rise to Dark Jedi and groups like the Sith. It is a recipe for emotional imalance. Anakin - being by nature EXTREMELY sensitive and emotional - fell victim to this but ultimately destroyed both groups, paving the way for his son and daughter to forge a New Jedi Order with a more healthy philosophy.

    Anakin's love for Padme was selfish and possessive. Luke's love for his father was utterly selfless - he was willing to sacrifice his own life in the hope (faith?) that his father could be redeemed. The remaining PT Jedi - Yoda and the ghost of Obi-Wan - wanted to discourage this. They wanted Luke to deny his healthy attachment to his father (or the idea of his father) and kill Vader. Luke goes against the old Jedi way and succeeds.

    This is why I think it's just as likely that Luke is the chosen one, if we are to believe that the philosophy meant anything at all.

    This is a reading that I've had for some time. I realize that it's not the only one, and may not even be Lucas's. But I don't think that matters. Lucas tapped into the stuff of myth - what he's produced is bigger than him. But again, that's just my reading, and my dismissal of Lucas's comments in interviews etc is just my philosophy of art (plus he bends the truth a lot according to expectation).

    Also, I have issues with dogmatic thinking that I'm sure affects my interpretation.

    Your reading is excellent - consistent and well thought-out. Hell, I bet Lucas would share your reading.
  4. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I've always like the idea and mystery of Luke possibly being the Chosen One. That Vader was so intertwined in the prophecy that the Council just got confused in thought him to be the Chosen One when they were actually one generation off. But then GL officially announced that Anakin IS the Chosen One no argument. Same thing with the Sith'ari, there was a good debate going on until the official announcement it was Bane, no matter who else matched the criteria.
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  5. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    That's why I don't listen when GL speaks :)
    Last edited by Son of a Bith, Apr 19, 2013
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  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Luke didn't destroy the Sith, Anakin did.
  7. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Oh Christ - nobody said he destroyed the Sith. If you read the posts you'd see that I'm offering an alternative interpretation of the prophecy, where bringing balance equals more than destroying the Sith.

    You don't have to like or agree.

    Another thing you'd notice if you read the posts is that I accept that this is my interpretation, and most certainly not shared by Lucas himself.

    Believe it or not, when you're dealing with a story this rich, there are often multiple readings.
    Last edited by Son of a Bith, Apr 19, 2013
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  8. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Actually some of what you're saying still goes together with my interpretation, especially your idea that the Chosen One brings balance to the force by fixing the imbalance created by the Jedi and Sith, together. Though I don't think the Chosen One prophecy specifically addresses the Jedi, I would agree that the Jedi have developed a standardized way of teaching that is not suited to everyone's individual needs and that standard way involves repressing/transcending emotions and avoiding attachments. I also agree that there seems to be development towards a new mindset during the Saga.

    I would point to Yoda's training of Luke. Though he clearly recognizes during ROTS that his approach has failed, he doesn't seem to teach Luke any differently than he taught his pupils before ROTS. For instance, Yoda doesn't seem at all sympathetic to Luke's concern for his friends. His attitude is simply like: "Well, forget about them. They're in pain, so what? Your feelings of concern for them don't matter. All that matters is getting properly trained."

    Once Luke learns that Vader is his father, his feelings for his father encourage him to want to turn him away from the dark side, and again, Yoda, and especially Ben, don't want to have anything to do with that.

    Here's his conversation with Obi-Wan in ROTJ

    Luke: There is still good in him.
    Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. His mind is twisted and evil.
    Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
    Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
    Luke: I can't kill my own father.
    Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

    So, it seems they are still clinging to the idea that Luke has to kill Vader, and that no other approach will work. (In a way, Obi is sort of right b/c only after their combat did Luke fully reject the dark side when he realized that he was becoming like his father, but I think it's clear that Obi-Wan wasn't thinking that this was the way it would go down.)

    However, in the end, what is it that allows Luke to save Vader? His love for his father -- in other words, a very strong attachment, the same attachment that led Anakin to the dark side in the first place, though, like you said, Anakin's love is selfish (he wants to prevent her death), while Luke's is selfless (he's willing to die in his attempt to redeem Vader). It is true that the Jedi of the Republic Era Order are selfless in the way they use the Force, but they are still discouraged from having deep emotional attachments -- that's why they are separated from their parents. But in the end, it is this type of deep familial attachment that allows Luke to present Vader with an alternative to the dark side, and it's Vader's familial attachment for his son that allows Vader to risk his own life and finally destroy the Emperor. So, in this way, attachment saves Luke, not destroys him. For this reason, the Jedi code is clearly too strict if it forbids the one thing that leads to the destruction of the Sith -- selfless attachment
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Apr 22, 2013
  9. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Nobody said otherwise..
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  10. Pensivia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2013
    star 4
    @darth ladnar: "Impressive, most impressive."

    You've brought out a lot of points that I had never thought about!
    Last edited by Pensive Padme, Apr 30, 2013
  11. Vladimir777 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Excellent post(s), darth ladnar! I read the entire thing straight-through the other night, and was hooked. I like your sense of logic and the way you present arguments with a strong sense of organization and evidence. As someone who works at a law firm as a paralegal and is looking to become a lawyer, you seem like you'd make a great lawyer! I will respond to this more in-depth tomorrow or another day when I have more time at work. I agree with most of what you're saying, and because of the strong sense of logic used, it's frankly pretty hard to argue with you here.

    On another note, I haven't posted on TheForce.net in forever, and it's nice to be back here! I recently started getting back into Star Wars while going through the series in chronological order to show my girlfriend, who had never watched the movies all the way through before. I used to come on this site back when the first prequels were coming out, and I was a pretty big SW geek. Going on here and also buying The Essential Reader's Companion to Star Wars (or something like that) has inspired me to read through the entire Star Wars EU in chronological order (too ambitious? I also want to eventually read through all of Shakespeare and Stephen King in chronological order, but I'm definitely going to wait until law school is over to tackle Shakespeare :p). I look forward to posting on here more!

    Again, awesome post!
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  12. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Greetings, @Vladimir777!

    Nice to have a fellow Stephen King (and of course Star Wars) fan on the board!

    Love me some Shakespeare, too! Although, like King (and the SW EU), it's not all great :p

    Hope you enjoy your time here! Welcome to the conversation.
  13. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    @Vladimir777, thanks, I appreciate the compliments, though I'm sure it could've used some editing! Many people have told me I should become a lawyer, but I have one problem: I disagree with too many of the laws!!! I also present my thoughts better in a written form. I was always very good in debate, but I'm not quick enough on my feet to be a great verbal debater. If court rooms involved internet posts instead of verbal exchanges, then I think being a lawyer might really be for me.

    I'm interested to hear your views on what I wrote. I certainly don't think there's one interpretation to a film, but what I was going for is an interpretation that ties as much together as possible (while still making sense). I think ROTS is under-rated in this respect. I mean, I don't think it's as serious of a work of art as Crime and Punishment or Death of a Salesman or Citizen Kane, but it does do interesting things with fate that I don't think has ever been done before (at least not to my knowledge). The idea of trying to beat a prophecy by creating a paradox is a pretty cool idea. Also, ROTS really has 2 fate storylines going on at once. Palpatine is trying to thwart his fate as predicted by the prophecy of the Chosen One. At the same time, Anakin is trying to prevent his promonitions of his wife's death from coming true, and like Oedipus, his attempts to do this actually cause it to happen. And to make it even more complex, Palpatine uses Anakin's attempt to thwart fate to help himself thwart the fate of the Chosen One prophecy.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, May 2, 2013
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  14. Vladimir777 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Thanks! Lots of entertaining stuff to read on these boards since I was last here (circa 2002-2003?).
  15. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    I was a member around that time as well! Over the years I'd lurk from to time, but recently I've decided to join the madness and I've been thoroughly enjoying it. Good to have u here!
  16. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Well, I'm glad to be in the company of the some Jedi Council veterans!
  17. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    I think you have some great points.

    A few things I want to mention. I am pretty sure that at one point George said that the Sith controlled the galaxy. Where he said that escapes me. :(

    In the Mortis Arc from the Clone Wars the Son drops behind Obi-Wan and Ahsoka as they puzzle over the missing shuttle and the dying plant life. He startles them and Ahsoka responds with a lit lightsaber. After a brief conversation the Son walks up to Obi-Wan and asks him softly "Is it true that he is the Chosen One?" At the point Obi-Wan steps back and ignites his blade and Ahsoka does the same with her shoto. Obi-Wan basically asks how do you know about that prophecy? I think that this says that only the Jedi and the Sith (who according to George were once Jedi) know about the prophecy.

    Then in a deleted/scrapped scene the Son is basically told that whoever has the loyalty of the Chosen One controls the galaxy.

    I believe I have more but it's getting a little late here and that was a LONG discussion.


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  18. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Thanks, if there were one change I would make to what I wrote in the "Chosen Post," I'd add the stuff about Anakin knowing that he's the Chosen One. He overhears Qui-Gon say it in the Council chambers and then he brings it up in the Mortis arc. What strange to me is that Anakin is pretty dismissive of the fact that he's the Chosen One. In fact, I think he says it's probably just a myth or something like that. I always wondered why he had that attitude, but I've never found out why in any EU stuff yet.

    Also when you say that the Son is told that whoever has the loyalty of the Chosen One controls the galaxy, that goes directly together with what's said about Palpatine and Anakin's relationship in the novelization of ROTS. Mace Windu has a special ability to see another Force sensitives key weakness also known as a shatterpoint, and right before he dies he realizes what Palpatine's weakness is. The book states that Mace realizes this: The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatter-point of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...” In other words, when Mace is dueling Palpatine, Mace realizes what it really means that Palpatine's one weakness is his trust for Anakin. At first, Mace thinks that Anakin is on his own side and will kill Palpatine b/c he thinks that Palpatine blindly trusts that Anakin won't hurt him, but then Mace quickly realizes that he's wrong. He then recognizes that Palpatine is actually safe b/c Anakin is actually on Palpatine's side, so he thinks to himself, "If only someone were here to stop Anakin, then I'd be able to kill Palpatine myself." But, in the end, he's wrong about that too b/c Anakin is the only one who can do the killing. So, how it works in the end is that Palpatine blindly trusts that Anakin won't interfere when he's frying Luke, so his trust is so great in Anakin that he believes Anakin won't even intervene to save his own son from being killed.

    So, what the Son says about the Chosen One is totally correct. When Mace fights Palpatine, he can't kill Palpatine b/c Anakin is loyal to Palpatine, but when Palpatine is attacking Luke, then Anakin's loyalty goes to Luke, so he chooses to kill Palpatine to save his son. Once his loyalties shift, Palpatine is defeated and the Galaxy is led by the light side of the Force and not the dark side any longer.

    Again, thanks for reading my long post. Looking forward to hearing your opinions about it and Star Wars in general.

    And May the Fourth be with You!
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy... and we shall have peace."
  20. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    I think she is referring to long ago, like around the time of old Republic, not Palpatine's re-taking of power in ROTS.
  21. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    Yes, I am.

    If I remember correctly the whole war(s) between Jedi and Sith are about revenge on the Sith's part.

    In George's stuff the Sith came into existence two thousand years before TPM. They were Jedi that on different levels were disillusioned with Order. They called themselves Sith and at one point attacked Coruscant and took over the government. Jedi kicked Sith butt and they believed Sith destroyed for a thousand years.

    At least the Jedi/Sith stuff is in the novelization of TPM by Terry Brooks. I am EXTREMELY certain that it is canon since Terry spent HOURS on the phone with George discussing all sorts of things Star Wars.

    There are several reasons that Anakin doubted that he was the Chosen One.one of them could have been his failure to save his mother.

    Also in the Mortis Arc when Anakin is taking to the Father after he went Dark he said that he saw what he could do and couldn't let it happen. Anakin is then told that his Destiny can can as quickly as love can fade in someone's heart. Anakin then comes back with the statement: "but I will cause so much pain". Then he's told: "if there is to be balance what you have seen must be forgotten".

    At the end Anakin is told that he is indeed the Chosen One and will one day bring Balance to the Galaxy as he did on Mortis. "Beware your heart" was the final warning.

    It also seems to me that Anakin FEARS his powers. Yeah he talks about becoming the most powerful Jedi but for the most part he seems to fear his power. Note that he seeks to learn how to stop death.

    If some stuff doesn't quite make sense I'm half asleep or might not have made sense in the first place.


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  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Sith attacking and taking over Coruscant was depicted in more recent media- the The Old Republic game. Set about 3,500 years before Star Wars.
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What do you think that quote refers to?

    "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy... and we shall have peace."
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, May 5, 2013
  24. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    Palpatine believes that he is bringing peace to the galaxy. George stated in one of the commentaries that Palpatine/Sidious doesn't see himself as evil which many if not all villains believe they are doing the right thing.

    For this it might be better to exclude the games and 11/12th of the EU.


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  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The RoTS Visual Dictionary also mentions that.