Saga The Chosen Post: The Prophecy's Importance, Palpatine's Plan To Escape It, & Why Mace Lost the Duel

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darth ladnar, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 20, 2013
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    Doh!
  2. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 20, 2013
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    Thanks for recounting this. I saw the Mortis storyline a few years ago, and I had forgotten its details. That was one powerful scene that really shows how important the Chosen One prophecy is. Anakin doesn't want that to be his future, but it's so important for that to be his future that he has to have his knowledge of it wiped away so that he will fulfill the prophecy. Anakin basically has to become a terrible person who is Vader so that, in the end, he finally fulfills the prophecy. Father recognizes that the prophecy is so important that Anakin will have to turn evil just so that in the end he will be redeemed and fulfill the prophecy.
  3. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    I don't think that Anakin had to turn to the Dark Side to fulfill his Destiny but he wouldn't make the right choices knowing that there was the possibility for Darkness in his future.


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  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    As Stover said in an interview around the time of ROTS, Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy in the Chancellor's office.
  5. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    I agree with this totally, and that's what I like about it. Palpatine knows all about the prophecy, and so, undoubtedly he's been trying to find a way to thwart the prophecy, and so, he ultimately comes up with a plan to turn Anakin into a Sith. This is an incredibly clever idea because it's thought that once you become a Sith you won't turn back. So, Palpatine figures that once he's converted Anakin, he's won. After that, if Palpatine kills Anakin, then he wins, but even if Anakin kills Palpatine, the Sith still win, because Anakin will remain a Sith, thus ensuring that one Sith lives on and that the prophecy can't be fulfilled. In other words, Palpatine thinks he's created a paradox that makes fulfilling the prophecy impossible.

    I also like how Palpatine executes his plan. He's manipulated Anakin so that he has split allegiances, and he knows he's going to have to switch Anakin over soon or he'll be powerful enough to kill him in straight up combat, ending the reign of the Sith. (Of course, he clearly could've killed Palpatine if he swung his lightsaber in mid-sentence when Palpatine was begging for his life.) So, that's why Palpatine encourages Anakin to reveal Palpatine's Sith identity to Mace. He knows (senses, foresees) that Mace will not heed Yoda's advice (from the novel) and he knows that Mace will storm over to his office and try to arrest him. In the end, Palpatine must know that Mace will appear traitorous to Anakinin one way or another. The great genius of Palpatine is that he places Anakin in a position in which he can take his life, but he knows that he won't but instead that he'll turn on Mace, an act that will force Anakin to become his ally. So the moment Palpatine's life seems to be in the greatest jeopardy is actually the moment that allows him to thwart of the prophecy for 20+ years.

    I think what a lot of people miss is that ROTS isn't just telling the story of Anakin's downfall. It's also telling the story of Palpatine trying to foil a prophecy that will end in his death and coming up with incredibly clever way of doing so that allows him to continue his rule for 23 more years.
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  6. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    Throwing out ALL of the EU those that go Dark can't/don't come back.

    The only way to come back is to truly be sorry for what you have done.

    Dooku didn't believe that he had done anything wrong from what little we see. Who knows about Maul but we can guess that he was either brainwashed or became a fanatic. Sidious we know nothing on how he joined the Sith but he believes that he is doing what has to be done. None of these three questioned their actions as Sith and most likely justified what they did.

    Now Anakin felt that he had no choice after Mace's death. He thought that he had done the unforgivable. According to George Vader was on one level or other always questioning his actions. "What am I doing? What AM I doing? What am I DOING??" In the end Anakin hated himself so much that I believe he did things so he could hate himself even more.

    Another thing that is interesting is in TESB Vader offers Luke the opportunity to join his father, complete his training, restore order to the galaxy and to destroy the Emperor (something that he said that the Emperor had foreseen). Then in RotJ Vader seems to say that Luke will take his (Vader's) place at the Emperor's side. His line that the Emperor now is Luke's Master heavily suggests that he is willing to be replaced by Luke.

    Vader wants Luke to live and decided at some point for Luke to live he (Vader) would have to die.

    Something that I read YEARS ago now said that Palpatine/Sidious had been content with Vader as an apprentice. However at some point in the OT Sidious learned that Vader was slowly dying. Whether this was because of the strain his body was under or the years of abuse and trauma that had never healed properly of all the above I don't remember. Heck. the above might not be canon but Vader's actions and behavior seem to suggest that he doesn't want to live anymore in RotJ.

    Either way before the events of RotJ no one that went Dark wanted to come back because they had no regrets. Anakin/Vader had regrets but just like that child that is taught that once you screw up in one area that is it; you will burn in Hell for it.

    Remember: no EU was considered in this.


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  7. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    I like this idea. It goes along with being a Sith (a person consumed with hate) and Anakin (a person who knows he's done terrible things and is trapped in a position from which he never go back)

    I hadn't thought of this idea that Vader is willing to let himself be replaced by Luke. At the time of ROTJ, GL hadn't come up with the rule of two (I'm pretty sure), so I think at that point, the idea was that Luke could become Palpatine's 2nd underling, though in ROTJ it's clear that Palpatine is perfectly fine with Luke killing off Vader to become his new apprentice because that would seal Luke's fate. However, if you bring the idea of the rule of 2 into ROTJ and this make sense since Palpatine subscribes to this idea in the PT, then it does seem to follow that Vader will be forced to face Luke, and whoever wins will become Palpatine's new apprentice.

    It's hard to figured out what's going on through Vader's mind, and he must be really conflicted, and I doubt even the novels do it justice. He prevents Luke from killing Palpatine, so he must not be totally committed to the idea that he should rule the galaxy with Luke. However, Jedi don't lie, and Luke says he feels conflict and good in Vader, so he must feel conflicted about killing Luke too (which I think makes him a less formidable opponent for Luke and that's why Luke is able to win IMO). He also clearly doesn't want to die either b/c he defends himself, and I doubt he likes the idea of Luke becoming Palpatine's apprentice b/c he says "It is too late for me, Son," so he clearly doesn't like his fate and wouldn't want Luke to suffer the same fate. What I ultimately come down to is that Vader must be so screwed up and conflicted at the end of ROTJ that he doesn't know what to do.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, May 6, 2013
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  8. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    I agree that at that point Vader wasn't sure exactly what he wanted.

    EDIT

    Sidious truly messed with Anakin/Vader over the years. And Vader served him because he had no where else to go.

    According to one source Vader had to insert the Stat Wars equivalent of SD Cards into the "slots" in his chest plate to download information. This information contained how his body was doing as well as the suit. Then once a month he needed to return to Coruscant so the suit could be checked for any problems, minor maintenance on both the suit and his body.

    Not to mention he swore that he would do whatever Palpatine/Sidious asked of him.

    But to the other paragraph there wasn't anywhere Vader could go in the suit and not be seen.


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  9. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    That's interesting. Do you remember where you read this?

    Also, there really wasn't any place he could go and not be hated. Once he turned on the order, there was no way they were taking him back, and soon most them were dead. The rebels wouldn't have trusted him even if he wanted to switch sides. Padme was gone. And once he got in that suit, there was no way he could even have a normal life, certainly not have a relationship with a woman. I mean even if Palpatine would have let him leave, what would he have done? I can't imagine him hanging out with the boys playing cards or going to play golf!:) Really, Palpatine was the only guy who wanted to have anything to do with him. He was basically trapped by the lack of any other opportunities.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, May 7, 2013
  10. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    Mar 21, 2007
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    It's in this

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0545312159/ref=oh_details_o09_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    But even if Vader left sometime after the surgery because according to "Dark Lord" he didn't go on his first mission in the suit until a month later, the Emperor would fnd him. I mean you can't hide if you are in something like that.

    Another source says that at one point the Emperor had Vader given a drug that enabled him to withstand greater pain increased something else but was highly addictive.
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  11. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    You're a better resource than wookieepedia!
  12. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    Wookieepedia needs an overhaul in many places @darth ladnar

    Besides, the joke in my family is you come to me with your Star Wars questions.
  13. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I have a few problems with this article. Well, one main reason. Even if Palpatine was faking his weakness during his duel with Mace, that doesn't mean that he could have easily wiped the floor with the Jedi Master. That only tells me that the two could have continued their fight until one killed the other - prophecy or no prophecy.

    I also have a problem accepting the concept that "balance within the Force" meant the end of the Sith. Period. I'm sorry, but that is not balance to me. This sounds like a typical human fantasy that refuses to acknowledge the presence of both light and dark in all living things. People . . . and perhaps Lucas . . . seem to want this illusion that we can have our happy endings, which include the lack of evil in this world. This will never happen, except in fiction for children. And I believe "STAR WARS" is also for adults. And many also seem to forget that the Sith Order under Palpatine was founded by a rogue Jedi Master. As long as the Jedi exist, the possibility of a revival of the Sith Order will always remain. The Jedi and the Sith are merely two sides of one coin. If this story was to evolve organically, the Sith would eventually rise in the post-ROTJ world.



    I guess you can't say the same about Yoda. He never seemed to believe in the prophecy in the first place. Which would explain his attempt to kill Palpatine.
    Last edited by DRush76, May 14, 2013
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  14. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    Yeah, I agree with most of what you're saying. I don't think that Palpatine could've wiped the floor with Mace. In fact, I think he could've lost the duel portion of their combat. However, if he did lose the duel, then he also lost it an incredibly coincidental time that helped present things in a perfect light to make it seem like Mace is acting traitorously, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted. For this reason, I think Palpatine threw the fight, but coincidences do happen, so maybe it was a coincidence. My main point is that Mace couldn't have killed Palpatine or that Palpatine knew that the chances of Mace killing him were really small. I say this for 2 main reasons: 1st, Palpatine purposely encouraged Anakin to tell the Jedi so he knew they were coming to arrest him. 2nd, Palpatine is incredibly smart, and so, he would not set up a situation that ultimately be likely to put his life in great danger.

    I understand what you're saying about the prophecy. Many people interpret the prophecy the way you do. I'm going from the evidence presented in the movies, GL's quotes, and what we learn in the "Darth Plagueis" novel. (In that novel, Anakin is created because Palpatine and Plaqueis are trying to persuade the Force to do unnatural things, and because of that, the Force responds by creating Anakin, to "balance out" that disturbance.) However, prophecies are open to interpretation, and I think your interpretation makes sense, since basically all the Jedi and the Sith are dead by the end of ROTJ, so it can clearly be argued that the Jedi were pushing things out of balance too. I would add 2 things. 1st, I don't believe your differing view of the prophecy really alters my larger interpretation of Anakin acting as the Chosen One and why being the Chosen One is so important. In fact, it might make Anakin even more central. If Jedi are also throwing things out of balance too, then what really has to happen is that someone has to clean house, and that's exactly what Anakin does do. He's instrumental in destroying the Jedi and the Sith orders. And in the end, we're left with one Jedi, Luke, who really has a different idea of the Force. He believes that strong attachments can be good (while the Jedi discouraged them). His strong attachment to his father is what allowed him to redeem Vader. So, really at the end of ROTJ, we're left with 1 Jedi who has a new philosophical outlook, and no Jedi who strictly follow all of the standards of the old Jedi order.

    One other thing I would add. I'm not saying that the prophecy prevents the Sith from re-surfacing in the future and ensures a happy ever after scenario. According to my interpretation of the prophecy, Palpatine and Plaqueis created an imbalance in the Force by attempting to compel the Force to do unnatural things, and so, Anakin by killing Palpatine and Palpatine's Sith lineage (which happens to Anakin/Vader himself), Anakin is correcting this imbalance in the Force. This doesn't meant that another imbalance won't occur in the future. And I recognize that the same is true under your interpretation of what imbalancing the Force means. Jedi in the future might fall to the dark side, Force-sensitives who don't become Jedi may be attracted to evil, or Force-sensitives may discover Sith philosophy and be persuaded to follow Sith teachings. I certainly don't think that Anakin fulfilling the prophecy will create eternal happiness in the Star Wars universe that will remain until the end of time.

    Well, I was sort of making a joke there, and simplifying things a little too. I do think Mace should've paid more attention to the prophecy. For instance, if he paid attention to the prophecy, he might have thought, "Hey, maybe I should bring Anakin with me when I confront Palptine. According to my own interpretation of the prophecy, he is supposed to destroy the Sith, and there's one Sith left, so maybe that means he'll kill Palpatine." And if Anakin had been there the whole time instead of entering when he did, then he wouldn't have the impression that Palpatine was really so helpless or the impression that Mace was acting like a traitor.

    At the same time, at that point, it also wasn't dumb for Yoda or Mace to try to kill Palpatine. At that point, they didn't know if the Chosen One prophecy is a true prophecy or not. The proof only comes when Anakin actually fulfills the prophecy 23 years later. Until that point, it still makes sense for them to think that Anakin may not really be the Chosen One or that they may have misinterpreted the prophecy. (In fact, by TESB it seems pretty clear that Yoda and Obi totally reject the Chosen One prophecy since they think Vader is unredeemable.) Only we, as the audience, know that Anakin really is the Chosen One because we know what he does in ROTJ. Since they don't have our hindsight and can't know that Anakin will ultimately fulfill the prophecy, it makes since for them to try to kill Palpatine.
    BTW, I appreciate you taking the time to respond and to read it. (I know I should've edited it to make it shorter.) Any other comments or criticisms are welcome!
    Last edited by darth ladnar, May 14, 2013
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  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    It's the balance of the Force, not the balance of the Force-users. If the Sith have attained the ability to alter the balance between the sides of the Force, removing the Sith is tantamount to the restoration of this balance.
  16. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    Yeah, I agree with your interpretation, Arawn, and what Lucas says and what the Jedi say and what the Darth Plagueis novel says all support this view, but I'm open to other interpretations based on the text of the films. Also, even with DrRush76's interpretation, it still doesn't alter Anakin's role as the Chosen One, which is the most important point to me. If you accept DrRush76's interpretation that both the Sith and the Jedi are throwing things out of balance, then Anakin still performs the function of the Chosen One. He ends up cleaning house, eliminating all the Sith and the Jedi by the end -- that is except one Jedi, Luke, who has a philosophy that differs from that of the Republic's Jedi order.
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  17. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    Mar 21, 2007
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    I think this is also important is the fact that at times in the PT, TCW and bits of the dreaded-needs-to-be-over-hauled EU Anakin seems to fear his powers.

    Yes a few times Anakin makes the comment about becoming more powerful than _________ . He even asks Palpatine about learning the power to save others from death.

    It should be noted though that Anakin asks if it is possible to learn this power. Anakin already knows that he has power beyond the imagination of every Force Sensitive in the Galaxy. Anakin just wants to learn how to apply his power to do it.

    In Rogue Planet near the end Anakin's self restraint breaks. It is implied that he started to strangle a Blood Craver via the Force. At one point Anakin snapped out of it but the Blood Craver had practically ripped his own throat out attempting to remove the nonexistent hands.

    Anakin knows that he has power and lots of it. He just fears all the power he has at his beck and call,

    His powers mustn't have helped him when he was trying to make friends in the Temple since what little we have seen in TCW (which I trust more than the EU). Anakin seems friendly with Mace as seen in the last three episodes of season two of the TCW. And he seems to be familiar with Kit Fisto seeing that Anakin called him by his first name.


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  18. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    It's amazing that despite the fact that it is stated several time is SW material people refuse to accept that balance means the destruction of the Sith. Some people have to force their own opinions on established fact.
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  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Given that the guy's skin is "cracked" and his eyes white, afterward, it may be more than simply Force Choke that Anakin was using.

    Call it instinct, animal nature, call it the upwelling of hatred and the dark side - in Anakin Skywalker, all this lay just beneath the surface, at the end of its journey out of a long, deep cave leading down to unimaginable strength.

    "No! Stop it, please!" Anakin yelled. "Help me stop it!" The rumbling of his ascending power drowned out his plea for his master to come and prevent a hideous mistake. I am so afraid, so full of hate and anger. I still don't know how to fight.

    Jabitha appeared in the doorway, eyes wide, watching the boy crouched low before the Blood Carver. Ke Daiv lifted his lance. What would have once seemed as quick as lightning was now, in the eyes of the young Padawan, a slow, curiously protracted swing.

    Anakin raised his hands in the twin, supremely graceful gestures of Jedi compulsion. Pure willful self flooded his tissues. The urge to protect and destroy became one. He straightened and seemed to grow taller. His eyes became black as pitch.

    Stop it, please!" Anakin shouted. "I can't hold it back any longer!"

    ...

    The Blood Carver emerged from the shadow, triple-jointed arms loose by his sides. He seemed exhausted. In the last of the daylight, his skin glimmered a deep orange colour, and Jabitha's heart filled he throat. He was still alive. The boy had not moved from beneath the overhang.

    "Anakin!" she called out again, her voice trembling."

    Ke Daiv stepped toward her and lifted a hand. She was almost too afraid to look at his face, but when she did, she screamed. His eyes had turned white, and the flesh around his head and neck had cracked. He was bleeding profusely, and his dark orange blood dripped down over his shoulders. He was trying to say something.

    Jabitha backed away, speechless with terror.

    "I tried to control it," Anakin said, and emerged into the twilight. The pinwheel's purple glory illuminated them with the fading of the dusk. The Blood Carver lurched forward step by step toward the edge of the field, away from the Sekotan ship.

    "Stop him," Anakin said. "Please help me stop him."

    Jabitha walked beside the boy toward the pitiful figure of their enemy.

    "Is he dying?" she asked?

    "I hope not," Anakin said as if ashamed. "By the Force, I hope not."

    "He was going to kill you," she said.

    "That doesn't matter," Anakin said. "I should never have let it loose like that. I did it all wrong."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, May 19, 2013
  20. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    You're right.


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  21. MRCynical Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 7, 2008
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    Erm... even excluding the EU (arbitrary, but up to you), I seem to remember a rather important bit in Return of the Jedi which suggests the opposite.
  22. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    Mar 21, 2007
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    I meant if you don't count anything from the EU those that went Dark stayed Dark up until that point.


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  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    One, Mace's original intentions was to arrest Palpatine, not kill him. If that was his original intent, why bring along Anakin, who was in a state of emotional turmoil at the time (something Mace had sensed)?

    And two, I don't think that Yoda or Mace have excuses for attempting to kill Palpatine. Neither Jedi Master had embarked on this course of action in self-defense. Both were reacting emotionally. And both had failed to confront the Senate with their suspicions about Palpatine. Using evil to destroy evil will only lead to that perpertrator's own downfall. For Mace, his downfall turned out to be death. For Yoda, his downfall manifested in humiliation, retreat and exile.
    Last edited by DRush76, May 21, 2013
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  24. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 20, 2013
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    Yeah, I agree. Mace wanted to arrest originally.

    Again, hindsight is 20-20, and I don't disagree with your point, but I also think Mace acted rashly. Mace had a good reason not to bring Anakin. However, Palpatine is a really tricky and smart adversary, and if Mace had stopped and thought, he might have realized, "Hey, Palpatine must be really smart to have been able to conceal his real identity all this time, and so, maybe this smart and devious guy Palpatine wouldn't want me to bring Anakin. Maybe he foresees something that I don't. Maybe I should meditate on this a while." In the end, if he had had brought Anakin, Anakin would've seen that Mace wasn't acting treasonously, but that Palpatine started to fight and that Mace was only defending himself. Also, Mace does think the prophecy may be true. So, Anakin's possible role as the Chosen One might lead Mace to conclude that this is the time that Anakin is going to fulfill the prophecy.

    Again, you may be right. Mace still might have concluded that Anakin shouldn't come along, but I think Mace was rash, and he should've at least thought it through rather than march right down there. I mean, he is arresting the Chancellor of most of the galaxy. That's a pretty tricky thing to do, and Mace doesn't take any time to think about the consequences. Something like that has to be done just right. Also, there was no reason he had to march in there that very second.

    Here's another example of how Mace's rashness hurt him. Palpatine really does control the courts, but Mace didn't consider that before going, so when Palpatine tells him that he does control the courts, Mace doesn't know how to make sense of that on the fly, so he ends up coming to a not very well thought out decision, telling Anakin: "He has control of the Senate and the courts. He's too dangerous to be left alive." Mace, while in the middle of combat, ends up using the info that an evil guy Palpatine just told him to justify murder. If Mace had just taken time to think, he should've realized that Palpatine did control the courts, so marching in there and arresting him like he did would ulitmately fail. So, my complaint is the same about his choice to not bring Anakin. I think he should have taken to time to think through and consulted with others whether taking Anakin is the best move. In the end, he may have still concluded that Anakin shouldn't come, but it was a strategic mistake to simply rush to a decision.

    I agree that Mace was acting emotionally. He was really angry, but I don't think Yoda was acting emotionally. I think he was doing what he had to do. It's true that Yoda wasn't acting in self-defense, but I'm not sure that Jedi can only kill in self-defense. My impression is simply that they shouldn't kill out of anger, but that it isn't a crime in itself to kill a Sith. I'll have to think about this one.
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  25. Ananta Chetan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2013
    star 4
    @ darth ladnar

    I you allow me... I would like to affectionately dub this thread:

    "The Broken-Toe Sessions" :)

    I followed your link here, as you advised, from the more currently active thread: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/was-the-prophecy-misread.50014615/#post-50955511, And I would like to post again my comments here that I left on that thread as they apply to both...

    This extended more flushed-out version of your Chosen One reflections was a real treat for a fan like me who loves to continually discover new angles and dimensions to the the saga. Maybe you would agree with me, that such shared reflections of the collective minds of the fans add yet another dimension of richness to the saga, even allowing us to be sort of active participants in how the story is told and experienced, as we re-experience it again and again from our on-going shared perspective.

    One small point I would like to make too, that you touched on, though maybe not as a whole if I remember... is the irony that-

    The Chosen One, who is the counterbalancing result of the creation of the dark power to cheat death, seeks to possess that same power which prompted the Force to create him. How brilliant is that? Now the circle really is com-plete! :)

    Thanks again Darth Ladnar and all of the other posters in this thread!
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