Saga The Chosen Post: The Prophecy's Importance, Palpatine's Plan To Escape It, & Why Mace Lost the Duel

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darth ladnar, Apr 8, 2013.

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  1. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 20, 2013
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    I never thought of that! That's a good point.

    ...And going with that, Anakin's desire to cheat Padme's death ultimately leads to her demise; plus, the desire to cheat death not only created the Chosen One but also nearly prevented the Chosen One from fulfilling the Chosen One Prophecy, allowing Palpatine, its target, to have 23-year-long reign, and as part of Palpatine's master plan, he's the one who convinced Anakin to seek the power to cheat death in the first place.

    I like it!

    Maybe you'll be lucky enough to break your toe, so that you can develop this idea into a way-too-long treatise! :)
  2. Ananta Chetan Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 11, 2013
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    Excellent continuation... bravo! The first one concerning Padme' occurred to me about an hour after I posted this, but the rest are fresh irony for me add to the mix. Each point has more than enough ironic depth to stand alone, but all of them coupled together almost produces this sort of domino effect in my mind, maybe you can empathize, where it almost seems as though any direction you try to go with the Prophecy, it immediately produces additional results for reflection and new insights, an ever-expanding web....
    Last edited by Ananta Chetan, Aug 29, 2013
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  3. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    On the first page (excuse me if this has been covered), it explains that Palpatine looks like a helpless man cornered by Mace into a corner as soon as he arrived there. However, Anakin should know that Mace brought three other Jedi with him, and he should believe Palpatine is at fault for their "disappearance."
  4. Darth Ridiculis Jedi Master

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    Maybe he thought they stopped to get drive thru before meeting Mace at Palpatine's Pad.
  5. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    The thing I've always found slightly confusing is why, if Palpatine genuinely believed that Anakin was the Chosen One, he didn't just eliminate him as soon as possible. All I can think of is that Palpatine had some belief that he could actually become powerful enough to 'defeat' fate.
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  6. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Of course! Why didn't I think of that?
  7. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    He stepped right over their bodies
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  8. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    That's my view. I think Palpatine was a true believer in the Chosen One. He knew that Anakin was produced when he and Plaguies started doing unnatural things with the Force, so he actually has more reason to believe that Anakin is the Chosen One than the Jedi have.

    I think it would have been cool if early on Palpatine had tried to kill Anakin, but at some point realized, "Hey, this isn't working. I need to take a different approach to neutralizing the Chosen One." Then, he switches to the conversion approach. That also could've expanded the storyline in the earlier films. Most of it really plays out in ROTS. In ATOC, it's almost forgotten, though Shmi's death and his slaughter of Tuskens were part of Anakin's fall to the dark side storyline.
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  9. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    I think there are 2 responses to this, and the 2 ultimately mix together into 1 bigger explanation.

    1st, Remember Anakin is not being totally honest with himself. GL says that Anakin is right to say "He must stand trial" and to chop off Mace's hand. However, GL also adds that Anakin doesn't really believe what he's saying, and that he's really intervening because he knows Palpatine might be able to save Padme. So, again, you have dead bodies, an angry very powerful Jedi (Mace), a guy who looks helpless, and Anakin who isn't being honest with himself. Taking all that together, it's not hard to imagine that Anakin thought: "Hey, maybe Mace did all this because the Jedi were trying to stop Mace's act of treason" or he may have thought "What happened to these Jedi?" then an instant later seen Mace with his saber pointed at Palpatine and because he was in the heat of the moment just forgotten what he had seen, especially because it would run contrary to what he wants to believe.

    2nd, even if Anakin concluded that Palpatine killed the other three Jedi, that still doesn't mean that Palpatine is not beaten and, after being hit with his own Force lightning, helpless. There are lot of people on this forum who argue to this day that Mace had completely defeated Palpatine and that his Vaapad powers allowed him to overcome Palpatine's lightning so well that Palpatine was helpless (even though the novel makes this very clear this is not the case and Mace even recognizes it), so Anakin may have concluded the same. Anakin knows how powerful Mace is, and after Palpatine is hit with his own lightning, he appears to be helpless, in pain, and disfigured. Anakin, who really wants Palpatine to live, isn't going to think: "Hey, Palpatine is so powerful that he took out three Jedi, so Palpatine must be faking this thing that seems to be hurting him so bad that it's leaving him disfigured."

    In the end, what matters is that Palpatine seems helpless and unable to defend himself, and regardless of whatever proceeded, it breaks the Jedi code to kill a defenseless man, even if that man took out three Jedi. (Dooku was responsible for tons of Jedi deaths in the arena, but Anakin admitted it was against the Jedi code to kill him once he was defenseless.) Mace too was an instant away from violating the code, and Anakin, knowing that Palpatine might save his wife, intervened to protect Palpatine. According to the Jedi code, Anakin is in the right and Mace is the one who's in the wrong. Just because Anakin's motives aren't right doesn't change that fundamental fact, and since Anakin can honestly say that Mace is in the wrong, it is fully understandable why Anakin (given who he is and what his motives are) would intervene on Palpatine's behalf even if he remembered the 3 dead Jedi and connected their deaths to Palpatine.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Aug 30, 2013
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  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    If you believe that Anakin is the chosen one and that he will destroy you, you don't save him on Mustufar. Palpatine didn't even have to kill him to solve his problem, he just had to let him die.
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  11. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    I think this is a good point, but (as you might expect :)), I don't totally agree. I think anyone of following 3 reasons could logically explain why Palpatine keeps Anakin around, and together, I think they make a strong case for why it makes sense for Palpatine to do what he did.

    1st, Palpatine has little choice but to make Anakin his apprentice. Virtually all the Force-users have been wiped out, and the few who survived certainly aren't going to embrace a guy who slaughtered all their buddies and who is hunting them down. Anakin is one of the few Force-users left, and unlike the others, he wants to be a Sith. In fact, he really has no where else to go but remain a Sith. At the same time, Palpatine is also devoted to the Rule of 2 and the master/apprentice relationship, so he needs an apprentice, so Vader pretty much has to be his guy at that point. His master, Darth Plagueis, did not abide by the Rule of 2 and treated Palpatine more like an equal, and when Palpatine is killing him, he basically mocks Plagueis not following the Rule of 2. Furthermore, like every dictator and despot, Palpatine wants his lineage to live on even after his death, and after wiping out all the Jedi, Anakin is the only person willing to fulfill that role.

    2nd, Palpatine does want to replace Anakin. There was no urgency in letting him die. Palpatine could've killed Vader at any time because he was more powerful than him and Vader was dependent on his suit. It is clear that if Palpatine were to find a suitable replacement he is more than willing to get rid of Vader. He wants to replace him with Luke, and in the EU, he knew about Vader's plans with Galen Marek, and he wanted to replace Vader with Galen Marek. Palpatine wants the best apprentice available to carry on his legacy, and Vader's the guy he's left with. And the best apprentice possible is a guy who is more likely to be able to kill Palpatine, so it's not as if Palpatine isn't used to being around people who want him dead. His own master almost kills him a couple times. That was also part of his training that made him such a strong and effective Sith that he is.

    3rd, Palpatine is convinced that once someone has embraced the dark side he won't go back. One might argue that it is dumb or over-confident for Palpatine to believe this, but this is what everyone believes. Yoda believes this ("Once you turn to dark side forever will it dominate your destiny"), Obi-Wan believes this ("Your father was seduced by the dark side. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed...He's more machine now than man. His mind twisted and evil"), Vader believes this ("It is too late for me, Son). So, everyone who was anybody, not just Palpatine, believed that Vader was not coming back to the light side of the Force, and it did take an extraordinary circumstance and unlikely series of events to flip Vader, even when he did ultimately return to the light.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Aug 30, 2013
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  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    I think that in a sense, the best explanation for what makes Palpatine tick is that he is simply a strong believer in Sith tradition, I believe you spoke on this earlier in the thread.

    Every Sith who has ever bought into the idea of the rule of two knows that eventually they will be murdered and overthrown by their apprentice. It is part of what it is to be Sith, even selfless in it's way.

    So in that sense, Palpatine is willing to accept the threat that Anakin represents. Something he acknowledges when he tells Yoda how Anakin will be more powerful than either of them.

    So, I can get behind that concept. You still have to wonder though why a man who has such strong allegiance to the idea of the Sith would not simply allow the man prophesied to be the one who brings about their destruction to simply die. Anakin is not simply a threat to Palpatine, he's a threat to everything Palpatine stands for. If you accept the idea that Sith stand for anything beyond themselves, which I would suggest they must to follow a rule of two in the first place,
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  13. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    If Anakin's destiny was to destroy Palpatine, I can see Palpatine going with that on the strength of the Sith tradition, provided Anakin was advancing the cause of the order. But is was to destroy the Sith in toto. The explanation that I tend to go with is that Palpatine believed he could defeat everything and anything if he became powerful enough - including death and destiny. It's an interesting point though isn't it?

    Edit: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us," throws an interesting spanner in the works...
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Aug 30, 2013
  14. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    I think a lot of what it comes down to is how much do we accept the rules that GL has created. For instance, GL has the wisest people in the SW universe all saying that once you turn to dark side, you're not coming back. We can look at that and say, "Yep, they must have a good reason for thinking this." (To expand a little on this point, in the EU, I believe only 1 Sith kind of made back to light side since the beginning of the Rule of Two, kind of in that he went insane in the process.) Or the second conclusion we can come to is: "Hey, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, Vader, none of them know what they're talking about because Luke does redeem Vader."

    If you are like me and you accept that the characters truly are wise and know what they are talking about and understand the rules of that universe, then it is logical for Palpatine to think he is on solid ground. In fact, I think Palpatine would think that Vader is his ultimate triumph. He's taken the Jedi Chosen One, basically their savior, and turned him into his evil lap-dog servant. How evil is that? Palpatine must get a huge cackle out of that one every time he thinks about it.

    Now I do see your point about Palpatine. If he wants to be extra positive that Anakin, himself, won't fulfill the prophecy (in addition to his understanding that dark siders don't turn back), then an extra prudent Palpatine might consider letting Anakin die, but here's the hitch with that. Doing that would eliminate one threat to the Sith but it would create another threat to the Sith. Palpatine would still have the problem of who to replace Anakin with. He's wiped out most Force-sensitives, and if Palpatine does not have a suitable replacement, the Sith will definitely die off when Palpatine kicks the bucket, so in that way, letting Anakin die would actually fulfill the prophecy too, because Palpatine won't have an heir after he dies, and so, there won't be any replacement to carry on the Sith tradition. So, if Palpatine lets Anakin die but never finds a suitable apprentice, then his letting Anakin die will actually bring an end to the Sith.

    I guess it can be argued that Palpatine's dumb to care so much about the Rule of 2 and having an heir, but the Rule of 2 was what got him to where he is and it's been working for the last 1000 years. Also bringing our world into the discussion for a second, there really is sort of weird quality of most tyrants here on earth that they really want whoever replaces them to carry on their legacy -- I guess sort of like they can control the world even from the grave. So, that's kind of weird, but that desire seems in keeping with how real egomaniacs think.

    Where I actually think Palpatine's actions were most questionable was not in ROTS but in ROTJ. He knows Vader is torn. He says to him: "Are you sure your feelings on this matter are clear?" And Luke senses the good in Vader, so Palpatine must have sensed it too. Given that, he should've known he was taking an incredible risk keeping Luke and Vader together. I think at that point Luke is right. He did grow over confident. He's so sure Vader's got his back that he doesn't even try to defend himself when Luke swings his saber at him. He has pulled the strings perfectly for so long and almost everything has happened according to his design from TPM on, that he's grown cocky and he lets his evil side get the better of him. Even after Vader is torn Palpatine has the upperhand. He could've just chucked Luke down that chasm or fried him to death in an instant, but he wanted to have some fun torturing Luke, instead. That's supreme over-confidence there -- along with some childish anger over the fact that Luke wouldn't go along with his plan. So Palpatine's actually taken down by some of the defining qualities of being a Sith -- arrogance, anger, and hatred. I think that's fitting and ironic that the qualities that Palpatine embraces bring him down, but still, Palpatine was certainly not on his "A game" as an evil master planner right then.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Aug 30, 2013
  15. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

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    What I don't understand is that most of the Jedi believed Anakin to be the chosen one. To kill the sith and bring balance back to the force. All the way up until qui-gon encountered darth maul the Jedi believed the sith to be extinct. So if they thought the sith extinct what did they think threw the force out of balance and why was there a need for a chosen one?
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  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    I'm not so certain: Darth Plagueis seems to imply that Anakin results from the "hands-on" shifting of the balance that was done by Plagueis and Sidious, not from the revival of Venamis.
  17. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    There is always the fear that others will discover Sith artifacts and re-start the order. Still, what you're saying may have to do with why the order inititially is mostly dismissive of Qui-Gon and his desire to train Anakin. At that point Qui-Gon does tell them he was attacked by someone powerful in the Force. I think he also says that he believes that his attacker was a Sith, but it's not really until the end of TPM that the Jedi truly seem to take the situation seriously. At that point, they might not have been as dismissive towards Qui-Gon (if Qui-Gon was still around).
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Sep 7, 2013
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  18. hleV Jedi Master

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    Jul 4, 2011
    You have some great points there (referring to the first page, didn't read the discussion), but I'm wondering about this paradox that Palpatine tried to create.
    1. If Palpatine believes in the Prophecy so much, why would he think that the fate would even allow the Chosen One to be turned? How is this plan better than just trying to kill Anakin? Is making a paradox somehow more possible than directly interfering with the Prophecy?
    2. Supposedly once one is turned to the dark side, there's no way back. So if Anakin kills Palpatine, he'd still be a Sith himself. Now, what stops Anakin from dying and that way fulfilling the Prophecy?
  19. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    But, as others have already mentioned, if Vader kills Palpatine and then dies, the prophecy is fullfilled.
    Second, if there are no other Force sensitives out there, the Sith are doomed anyway. If Palpatine dies, either by old age or Vader killing him and Vader takes over. If there is noone for Vader to take as apprentice then the Sith will die out with vaders death. So if Palpatine thinks this he knows he is only dealying the inevitable.
    Third, if Palpatine wants to a supply of Force sensitives there are several things he could do.
    a) Instead of killing ALL the Jedi at the temple, only the adults are killed while the children are taken prisoner. Now he has a number of potential Siths that he can corrupt over time. If that fails, he can "ensure" that more Force sensitives are born, thought the process is horrible and disgusting.
    b) This depends on how midis work and how the Jedi used them. But it is reasonable that midi tests are done on newborns and those with a high enough count are potential jedi. But I thinks it is likely that some parents turned down the jedi offer so those children are Force sensitives.
    In short, any siblings to the current jedi would have as high a count as they have and any children they have will as well.
    So Palpatine only needs to looks into the jedi files to find this or continue the practice of midi tests.


    [/QUOTE]

    But Anakin is a threat not just to his life but this whole legacy thing. Anakin is foretold to destroy the Sith, not just kill Palpatine but the whole Sith order. If Palpatine puts any stock in the prophecy and cares about Sith legacy and the like, then Anakin is a huge threat.
    And, as said, turning him won't change that, since Vader can die as the last Sith and thus fullfill the prophecy.
    Say Palpatine has known about the prophecy since TPM or earlier and thinks Anakin is the one. Yes he starts to work on turning him at some point after TPM but supposed that failed. If he lest Anakin live and he does not turn, he now has a fully grown, powerfull jedi as his enemy and one he thinks will destroy the Sith. A wiser course would instead be for Palpatine to have Anakin die in an "accident" shortly after TPM.
    But then again he might have figured that if Anakin doesn't turn, he will die in order 66.

    In closing, I am not too fond of the prophecy and how it was used in the films. And I also think that just killing a person isn't particulary special or unique. If Anakin really is the chosen one then my own idea, totally contradicted by Lucas I know, is that he restores balance by turning back from the dark side. That was the thing all the senior jedi/sith thought could not be done. But he did it and opened the door from the dark side, showing that turning isn't a one way street. You can still change your life and turn away from the path you are walking.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  20. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    I'll try to give what is my answer to both of these together. Prophecies are weird things. They are a prediction about the future, usually about what people will do, that must come true, and because of this, they have sort of a weird logic to them. Also, a prophecy is not a real thing -- at least I don't believe it is. However, in the galaxy far, far away, prophecies are real things, and they have real properties. So, you have to look at it from that POV, that they are real.

    Now, imagine that Palpatine really believes that the prophecy is real, and this makes sense because he pretty much knows that the Force created Anakin in response to how he and Plagueis were trying to make the Force follow their will. So, Palpatine has better reason to think that the prophecy is true than anybody else.

    So, if we imagine that Palpatine believes it is real, we need to think about how he would act in response. If Palpatine doesn't believe in the prophecy, he would not do anything special because he believes it's a bunch of garbage. However, if Palpatine does believe in it, then that means he believes in the concept of a prophecy -- that is, he believes that this thing in the future will inevitably come true. Now, the first idea that would come into Palpatine's mind would probably be: "Hey, if I kill this little kid, then he won't kill me." However, if he really believes in the prophecy, he would also accept the concept of a prophecy, so then he would next think: "But wait, I can't kill little Anakin. He's prophecized to kill me and the rest of the Sith too. If it's his fate, then I can't stop it because it's impossible to stop a prophecy. Plus, my trying to kill Anakin might be the very thing that will lead to my death. If I try to kill Anakin, then as the prophecy says, I'll fail at that, but Anakin may learn of my trying to kill him and that might be the very thing that leads him to want to kill me. No, I need to come up with something better."

    This leads us to your next question:

    Here's how creating a paradox is arguably a better solution. A prophecy is something that must come true. It is something that is impossible to stop. It is inevitable, and that's what makes a paradox an interesting way to solve the problem. A paradox is something that logically can't be true. So, it's also something that is impossible to overcome.

    Let me give you an example. Here's the crocodile's paradox (which I believe is an unsolvable paradox): "If a crocodile who always tells the truth steals a child and promises its return only if the father can correctly guess exactly what the crocodile will do and the crocodile plans on keeping the child, how should the crocodile respond in the case that the father correctly guesses that the child will not be returned?" This creates a paradox. Since the father says that the child will not be returned and that's what the crocodile is planning to do, then the crocodile must return the child. However, if he returns the child, then the father's prediction would then become false since he predicted the crocodile would keep the child, and since the crocodile will only return the child if the father's prediction is correct, the crocodile must then keep the child, but at that point, the father's prediction becomes true again, so the crocodile must return the child, but then he can't because... and this keeps going back and forth like this literally forever. For this reason, the crocodile can't act since each option creates a logical contradiction with the other, and there's no way to get around this. The paradox has made either option logically impossible.

    That's what's special about a paradox. Just like a prophecy, it is impossible to overcome a paradox. We have a prophecy that predicts that Palpatine will be killed by Anakin. However, if Palpatine creates a real paradox that thwarts the prophecy, then a paradox would make it impossible for Anakin to act. Now, again it still may seem strange that something that must come true can't come true, but that's exactly what makes a paradox the perfect solution. Paradoxes make what seem to be an apparently possible way of acting logically impossible to do.

    So, if Palpatine's premise is correct that Sith don't return to the light, then it seems Palpatine has created a paradox. These seem to be the only possible options: Palpatine kills Anakin, and Palpatine continues on leading the Sith and perhaps finds a new apprentice OR Anakin kills Palpatine, and since he'll remain a Sith, he'll become the new Sith master and perhaps find a new apprentice OR Anakin will never try to kill Palpatine, and they remain master and apprentice until one of them dies of natural causes, if that ever occurs. None of these options allow for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

    Now, Palpatine's premise was ultimately proven to be false, but everyone -- Jedi and Sith --thought he was correct: Yoda, Obi-Wan, even Vader himself. ("It is too late for me, Son.") And going by the accepted wisdom of wise people makes a lot of sense. (I mean, if the Christian god did undeniably exist with 100% irrefutable proof and it wasn't just a matter of faith, and priests had an undeniable connection to God, then it would be pretty weird if these wise spiritual leaders were wrong about a really basic rule of Christianity, but in this case, the wisest Jedi and Sith do have it wrong. (Not trying to offend here people of faith, just trying to make an example).)

    So, again, it was accepted wisdom among the Jedi and Sith that Palpatine's premise was correct, and since a paradox seems to be the only way or at least best way to thwart a prophecy, it makes sense that he goes with that option.

    Furthermore, Palpatine's belief in this premise only makes the ending of ROTJ all the better. Palpatine seems to be 100% totatlly convinced that dark siders won't return to the light. That's why he's not afraid to torture Luke right in front of his father. Palpatine could've easily pushed Luke right into that chasm to his death. If Palpatine even had the slightest fear that Vader would turn back to the light side, then he would've killed Luke instantly, and then Vader wouldn't have had the opportunity to act while Palpatine was distracted. Consequently, Palpatine's little bit of fear of Vader returning to the light would've prevented the prophecy from being fulfilled and Vader presumably would've remained his apprentice, and even if Vader didn't remain his apprentice, Palpatine wouldn't have been momentarily distracted so Vader wouldn't have had the opportunity to kill him. So, if Palpatine didn't have unwavering faith in the absolute power of the dark side, he would've survived the encounter and thwarted the prophecy, and since the prophecy would've been thwarted, the dark side's power would seem be absolute. Thus, the only way Palpatine could've guaranteed that the dark side's power is absolute is by believing that it isn't. That's a pretty cool irony that's nearly a paradox right there.

    I think this is totally correct. If Vader did successfully overthrow Palpatine and he can't find a good apprentice, then the Sith rule ends with Vader's death. The same is true if Palpatine kills Vader if Palpatine can't find a good apprentice, but ruling your entire life and/or the lifetime of your apprentice is still pretty good, especially since a Jedi Anakin (not injured by Obi-Wan) would've soon surpassed Palpatine, and presumably ended his rule at that point and returned rule to the Jedi in matter of years. Plus, there are a few other things going in Palpatine's favor. There are Sith who learned how to slow aging, so Palpatine may have been able to learn that technique. (In fact, he may have already known that technique.) Also, he may have learned the ability to cheat death and live forever, so he wouldn't have to worry about finding any successors. Finally, he might have found a worthy successor. So, at the very worst, Palpatine-Vader will rule the galaxy for 50 to 75 years. That ain't bad. At best, their successors will rule forever or Palpatine might even learn how to live forever himself.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Sep 9, 2013
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  21. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    To darth landar,

    Interesting idea, I rather like it it.

    But some problems with it.
    1) In RotJ Palpatine was expecting Luke to kill Vader and take his place, that seems to have been his plan all along.
    If he so firmly believes in the prophecy then Luke CAN'T kill Vader and he has just wasted his time.
    So to me this indicates that, in RotJ at least, Palpatine doesn't hold Vader as unkillable.

    2) Turning Anakin doesn't create a paradox. As you admit, if Vader kills Palpatine and dies, either while doing it, imideatly afterwards or some time later, the prophecy has come true. The only thing turning Anakin ensures, if the prophecy is absolute, is that Anakin will die as well and before having an apprentice. Also, the Sith value power and Palpatine holds the dark side to be stronger. Anakin has quite a bit of power already, so why make him even stronger? It would only make it easier for him to kill Palpatine. Not to mention having him nearby.

    Now killing Anakin that would create a paradox. the prophecy says that Anakin will kill Palpatine but if he is dead then that can't happen.

    Some other comments.

    But take the situation in RotS, when Anakin is lying at the lava bank. Palpatine could simply decide to wait and see. He isn't trying to kill Anakin, if Anakin dies it is not by his doing. Just wait a few hours out of sight, if Anakin dies then problem solved and Palpatine would know that the prophecy was hogwash.
    That would be an intersting way to elude the prophecy. Palpatine can't kill Anakin directly but if Anakin dies through other means, the prophecy is thwarted. I have read some other stories where there has been similar situations, a person is destined to kill some evil ruler but the evil ruler can't kill this person directly. So instead he comes up witha dangerous quest for this person, hoping this would kill him.

    You forget one possibility, Anakin tries to kill Palpatine very shortly after he turns and kills Palpatine but dies along with him. Then the Sith rule is less than a year. And knowing Anakin as he did, he would figure this to be a likely possibility. he knows Anakin is impatient and reckless.
    He has also promised Anakin the means to save Padme. If he does not deliver and Padme dies then Anakin will get pissed and could very well attack him. Also, knowing Padme as he does, he would know that even if she doesn't die, she will not want to be with Anakin and that could turn ugly. Again it could result in a pissed off Anakin wnating to take his anger out on somebody.
    Also if Palpatine knows how to live forever, then all the more reason to kill Anakinas that ensures his immortality.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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  22. Ananta Chetan Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 11, 2013
    star 4
    What about the Absolute creative intelligence of the Force itself... to be able to manifest such a being as the Chosen One as its instrument, that would be able to eventually thwart any possible manipulated outcome that the dark forces could devise? Incredible.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  23. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Thanks, I also like a number of the points that you made, and please don't think that I'm trying to disagree with you, but more that I'm continuing the discussion and expanding on certain points.

    You bring up certain scenarios, some of which I haven't thought of and some of which I have, but it's hard to address every possibility because each variation brings up a ton of new possibilities.

    I'll give an example. There's a question of what the prophecy really means. I think it could mean one of the following:
    --it could mean that Anakin will definitely destroy the Sith and this is inevitable, as neither Palpatine nor no one else can prevent it, though we still don't know when the prophecy will be fulfilled
    --it could mean that Anakin will destroy the Sith and Palpatine can't prevent him from doing so but someone or something else might be able to prevent this from happening (an assassination, disease, old age, etc.)
    --it could mean that Anakin is the only one who can destroy the Sith but he won't necessarily do so
    --it could mean that Anakin is the only one who can destroy the Sith but he won't necessarily do so and while the Sith can't be destroyed by anyone else, they could die off on their own
    There are probably other possible meanings too. For instance, perhaps if the prophecy isn't fulfilled and Palpatine's the only Sith around, then he will live forever or perhaps he can still die by natural causes.

    So, the prophecy has many possible meanings, and what complicates it even more is that the prophecy might mean one thing and Palpatine's interpretation of it might be something different.

    Now, typically when I talk about the prophecy and Palpatine's interpretation of it, I am using the first definition: Anakin will destroy the Sith and this is inevitable though we don't know when it will occur. I use this definition because we don't know what the prophecy means exactly and a cautious Palpatine would consider the worst case scenario and think about how to deal with it. So, when I go strictly from this definition of the prophecy, this is what I think Palpatine's plan is at the end of ROTS. (My guess is that I'm thinking through the nitty-gritty way more than GL has, but I do think GL had the general gist that Palpatine was turning the Chosen One into his ally to thwart the prophecy)

    In my view Palpatine's plan at the end of ROTS is that he wants to remain the master and he wants Vader to remain his apprentice forever. He never wants to challenge Vader because he can't kill Vader because, if you go by the first definition of the prophecy, killing Vader would nullify the prophecy and prophecies can't be nullified given that a prophecy is inevitable. (ie. Anakin can't fulfill the prophecy if he's dead). However, after ROTS Vader also can't fulfill the prophecy because Vader isn't powerful enough to kill Palpatine and Palpatine is always watching his back and Palpatine can predict what Vader is up to. Since Vader may be able to kill Palpatine at some point in the future the prophecy hasn't been nullified. In fact, if they continue on as master and apprentice for infinity more years the prophecy still hasn't been broken. So, Palpatine's master plan is to discover a way to cheat death so that their master apprentice relationship will continue on without end. (Of course, this would change if another version of the prophecy is the true version of the prophecy.)

    So, while Palpatine is first and foremost afraid of the first interpretation of the prophecy, Palpatine considers that the other interpretations of the prophecy may instead be valid. This leads us to the Luke vs. Vader duel.

    So, as you point out, if Palpatine goes by the first definition of the prophecy, then Vader is unkillable, but here's the thing. He doesn't know if that version of the prophecy is correct, and he'd greatly prefer it if this version of the prophecy isn't the correct version of the prophecy. So, bringing Luke into fight Vader is Palpatine's way of testing if this second version of the prophecy as follows is actually the legit interpretation of their prophecy: Anakin will destroy the Sith and Palpatine can't prevent him from doing so but someone or something else might be able to prevent this from happening. So, if Luke kills Vader, then Palpatine knows that this is the correct interpretation of the prophecy, and more importantly, it also means his prophesized killer is dead.

    You're right. It wouldn't necessarily end up with the best case paradoxical situation I mentioned, though it could -- i.e. with Vader challenging Palpatine, and either the winner Palpatine or the winner Vader continuing to rule on and finding a suitable replacement. (BTW, I'm not sure even Palpatine thinks thwarting the prophecy guarantees that Sith rule will last forever; like I said, the Chosen One is the only guy who can end it. At some point, it might end on its own or when the universe burns out or whatever.)

    In regards to Vader dying when taking out Palpatine scenario that you mention here and later in you post, this extreme Rocky 2 scenario is possible, though I don't think it would work very well dramatically. (Rocky 2 has a ridiculous ending with both boxers nearly knocked out.) In this situation, Vader attempts to usurp power and in this attempt by Vader both of them end up dead. Theoretically, Palpatine could avert this scenario. All he'd have to do is commit suicide when he senses that Vader is coming close to his level of power. This would guarantee that Vader would live on and Sith rule would continue after his death. Palpatine's final goal is for the Sith to rule the galaxy. He would prefer to be the Sith in charge, but in the end, he's a believer in the Rule of 2. In fact, he mocked his master for not following it as he was killing his master. His words to Yoda also show that he accepts that his apprentice will replace him: "You will not defeat me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

    However, I don't think Palpatine is necessarily looking this far ahead when he hatches his plan. I mentioned how Plapatine was thinking at the end of ROTS. I actually think Palpatine would've had slightly different plans in the middle of ROTS. At that point, he didn't have a lot of great options, so he was basically thinking "I've got to go with the best option I've got." If he did nothing, it was pretty clear that a Jedi Anakin would soon over take him and so he was looking at the Chosen One fulfillling the prophecy and ending Sith rule in the immediate future. So even if Anakin remained undamaged and reached his full potential as a Sith, it would still be better because, in this case, once he kills and replaces Palpatine, the Sith will live on and continue to rule into the future rather than the Jedi taking back over. And again, gaining and retaining Sith rule is the number priority of the Rule of 2 and for Palpatine. Also, even if Vader becomes more powerful, Palpatine can make it in Vader's interest not to kill him. For instance, many Sith masters withhold their knowledge of secrets of the Force to make them necessary to their apprentices and to give their apprentices a reason not to kill them.

    That Vader ended up severely injured was actually both a plus and a minus for Palpatine. It made Vader less of a threat. So Palpatine will presumably live longer, which is plus. But Vader isn't an ideal apprentice, which is a minus.


    Leaving Anakin to die would solve one set of problems. It would get rid of the Chosen One and prove that the 2nd meaning of the prophecy is the correct one (or that Anakin isn't the Chosen One at all). However, a good argument can be made for saving him too. Palpatine has wiped out all the adult Force-users, and so, Palpatine now has the problem of finding a good apprentice who will serve him and embrace the dark side, and Vader's already embraced the dark side and it's not like he's really got anywhere else to turn. Also, Vader is less of an imminent threat to Palpatine. He's damaged and he will never surpass Palpatine. So, he could leave Vader there and see if he dies, but since Vader is dependent on his suit and Palpatine can easily kill him just by frying him with Force lightning or by sending the entire Imperial army after him, Palpatine might also think, "I can find out if Vader can die later on. Right now I'm really in need of an apprentice, and carrying on Sith rule is most important to me after all. So, once I find a suitable replacement for Vader I'll get that guy to inflict the same kind of mortal wounds that Obi-Wan just gave him."

    I would also add that as prophecy storylines go, it is easier to make a strong argument that this one makes sense when you compare it to many of the others. I mean, all Oedipus had to do is swear never to marry and he'd be sure not to suffer from his fate. Just the fact that we're able to make strong cases on each side I think shows that GL did a pretty good job of establishing a good prophecy storyline given that prophecies can't possibly exist in reality.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Sep 11, 2013
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  24. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Yeah, I think that's what makes it cool. There are all these apparent obstacles to the prophecy ever being fulfilled, and so having it fulfilled is one thing, but the way it is fulfilled makes it even cooler -- with Luke being tempted by the dark side but rejecting it out of compassion for his father and then his father being moved by his son's act so much that it moves him to have compassion for his son right at the very same time as Palpatine is so strongly embracing anger and believing in the unwavering power of the dark side that he is trying to slowly torture Luke to death rather than taking the slightly more merciful route of killing him quickly.

    Like Samuel Vines points out above, the prophecy could've been fulfilled simply by Vader and Palpatine both inflicting fatal wounds on the other at some point when Vader seeks to supplant him, but that would have had none of the poetry. Instead, the way it is resolved reflects the values associated with both sides of the Force, with the light side triumphant. Really, the resolution directly comes about because Luke and Vader are solely motivated by the values associated with the light side -- compassion, pity, self-sacrifice -- and because Palpatine is solely motivated by values associated with the dark -- anger, pride, cruelty. If either Palpatine wasn't fully motivated by the dark or Vader and Luke weren't fully motivated by the dark side, then Palpatine would have won and Luke would've either died or become his new apprentice.
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  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Agreed. That's why I don't buy it that Sidious thought of him as such;Cosinga's son was so arrogant that he didn't care if Skywalker was the Chosen One or not. There wasn't a second thought given to save Vader, because he had no fear of an undamaged Anakin, so he definitely wouldn't fear the mechno-monster on his reconstruction table.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Sep 12, 2013
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