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Saga The Chosen Post: The Prophecy's Importance, Palpatine's Plan To Escape It, & Why Mace Lost the Duel

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Nerdling, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    Anakin's fall fits the parameters of that definition, though. It's just that fear, rather than anger, is his impetus. Which it can be -- Yoda says in ESB that "anger, fear, aggression" are paths to the Dark Side. His fear of loss and of not being in control are his primary motivators. In terms of falling to evil, there's always a level of choice involved -- and Anakin's is exactly that. He chooses to act as he does based on his fears and his selfish desires and then rationalizes his actions as being for the greater good.

    I disagree. Anakin's turn isn't a twenty second decision. It spans the entirety of all three films with that final submission to Palpatine being the final culmination of his journey to the tipping point. It began with his separation from his mother in TPM and when Yoda remarks that he is afraid to lose her -- that fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate to suffering. Anakin's turn is no submission to Palpatine -- rather it's him making a power grab. He has decided that he will have the power he's always dreamed about (the power to cheat death among them) and if Palpatine is a vehicle to that then so be it -- he flat out states in ROTS that he plans to overthrow him.

    And Anakin in ROTJ knows that he is evil. That it is "too late" for him. That, and believing in a cause doesn't necessarily mean you are blind to the evil you have done in service of it.

    Additionally, in regards to AOTC, if the standard of falling to the Dark Side means killing people in a rage when you watch someone you care about die, then Luke fell in A New Hope. He killed those stormtroopers out of anger right after Obi-Wan let himself be killed and only stopped when he heard Obi-Wan's voice compelling him to run.

    I disagree. If anything, I think Padmé's death would have made Anakin hate himself but not rescind on the Dark Side in the slightest -- especially after his duel with Obi-Wan. Because you can't forget that Anakin still believes in the Empire -- he still believes that an Empire will bring order to the galaxy, will make people's lives better, will provide greater justice and security.

    You say that Anakin "otherwise opposes" Palpatine. But where is the evidence of this? If anything, Anakin believes quite strongly in Palpatine's "reorganization" of the Republic. He thinks it is good that the Chancellor's office is gaining more power, he thinks the Republic as a system is nonfunctional, he thinks action over deliberation is ideal, he believes that an empire will bring "peace, freedom, justice, and security." As in the OT, Anakin intends to kill Palpatine and lead the Empire, but he doesn't oppose the formation of the Empire.

    It fits in line perfectly with his offer to Luke to use their combined strength to take out Palpatine, end the war, and bring order to the galaxy.
  2. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

    Apr 20, 2013
    Yes, I agree with you 100%.
    But... (There's always that but.) In Anakin's case there's a lot of background, to be precise, in his relations towards the Jedi and towards Palpatine. So when he turned to serve Palpatine, he was thinking he's doing the right thing, killing all the Jedi and the Separatists. One were trying to take control of the Republic and the others were in war with it. By killing them he went down the dark path, but that's another story.
    Luke's so called turn, although not the theme of this thread, had no background in his flirting with the dark side, he had no disguised mentor that overblew his confidence and capabilities, Palpatine had nothing to lure him on his side and he certainly wasn't thinking he's doing the right thing by trying to kill Vader.

    But does he really know that the Sith are evil? Remember that talk in the opera. Palpatine managed to level the Jedi and the Sith, and Anakin did not say otherwise. Also, I really doubt he gave any thought about the Sith, he was thinking only to save his wife. He killed all the Jedi and the Separatists only to gain more power to save her. Again, greed. So when he killed her, there was no-one left from his past life to keep memories and doubt in his soul about what's he doing. The only one left was Palpatine who continued to poison him until there was only one buried piece of his humanity (or soul) that Luke awoke.
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Also, it's important to realize that some of Anakin's "seduction by the dark side" occurs during the Jedi Temple attack, just as Palpatine intended. And he even said as much outright in dialogue heard by the audience.
  4. Ananta Chetan

    Ananta Chetan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 11, 2013
    darth ladnar, you asked me to try to I will try...:)

    Within the all pervading Force-Light, which is inherently good, exists relative good-light and relative evil-darkness. Relative good takes its good from the Force, but with conditions. Relative evil in the same way, but as a denial of that good. As Darkness has no positive existence, it is only experienced when the Light is absent. So it can only veil, twist, distort the Force, but too still relies upon it for its power. So couldn't there two levels within the One relative (which contains relative good and evil) and one Asbolute?

    So, of course it's a paradox. Both perspectives are right on their own level while the highest one transcends and includes the lower. Similar to the perspective of eastern spirituality, which says it much more eloquently than me!
  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    As I understand it, it is if you use the Force to kill in hate that you can turn.
    A regular person that kills in hate won't turn to the Dark side as he or she isn't a Force user.
    A Force user has to be more carefull with his or her feelings and not let fear, anger or agression take over in the heat of battle.

    We are told that the Force obeys your commands but it also controlls your actions.
    In ESB Luke is told that "This is a dangerous time for you." he feels the Force but can't control it and that leaves him open to temptation.
    And in ESB we are also told that the Dark side can consume you and turn you into an agent of evil.

    So in ANH, Luke had only one brief lesson from Obi-Wan so I doubt he used the Force when shooting at those troopers.
    In RotJ on the other hand, he gave into his hate and let it flow through him and it gave him power and had he gone all the way and killed Vader then he would have been turned by the power of the Dark side.
    In AotC Anakin killed not once but many times in hate and he already had a considerable amount of training and could use the Force quite a lot, far more than Luke in ANH. Also, Luke stopped, Anakin didn't, he killed until there was noone left to kill.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Quick comment about this.
    We know of a place that is strong with the Dark side of the Force. A room of evil. Luke felt it when he got near.
    I don't know of any similar rooms of the Light Side of the Force.

    So with the Force, the Dark Side can exist and manifest itself into a place, not just people.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  7. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    That doesn't make much sense to me, personally. If you have to use the Force to kill in hate in order to turn, then what exactly do the Jedi fear from the Dark Side? They can basically kill anyone they like as long as they use conventional means then. It seems rather...arbitrary to me. If you Force choke someone, then that's the Dark Side while if you stab them, that's fine? Personally, I think that's a rather mundane approach to the Force.

    Plus, if one needs to be trained in order to fall to the Dark Side, then where would the Sith come from? They seem to be able to use the Dark Side from day one. Otherwise, all Sith would have to have been Jedi previously, which clearly isn't the case in terms of Palpatine and Maul.

    Luke can obviously feel the Force in ANH -- he manages to block the bolts and use it to destroy the Death Star, which is no mean feat. So even if falling to the Dark Side does require training (for whatever reason), Luke has certainly shown an aptitude in making use of the Force.

    Luke also, like Anakin, killed multiple people. He also had two of his friends yelling at him to run but only stopped when he heard Obi-Wan's voice imploring him to go. Anakin had no one telling him to stop. Plus, again, this seems arbitrary. How many people do you have to kill before it's considered falling to the Dark Side? Numbers don't seem to have anything to do with it.

    I have never been a fan of a "turn" being an emotional reaction. Because that reduces the Dark Side as a seductive influence and basically makes the good vs. evil conflict meaningless. All you have to do to get someone to turn is to capture one of their friends or loved ones and torture them. Because I think most rational people, if a loved one had been tortured, could very well kill the person responsible -- and I don't really think that indicates a moral failing on their part so much as it does a normal response to extreme psychological stress.
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Well if you get angry or filled with hate you tend to loose control and if you do then you won't be able to stop using the Force to fuel your actions. Yoda warns Luke about the danger of anger, fear and agression and how they are easy to join you in battle.
    The jedi can fight and kill if need be but they must remain calm and not let their anger or hatred take over. Then they don't control the power, the power controls them.
    It is called turning to the dark side of the Force, how much sense does it make for a non-Force user to turn to the dark side of the Force when he or she can't even use the Force?

    I recall Lucas saying that the first Sith were fallen Jedi. Obviously a Sith can train a force sensitve from scratch, he or she will then never be a jedi but a Sith from the word go. Maul and Palpatine were almsot certainly trained in this way.

    But in the trench Vader senses Luke use of the Force, there is no indication that Vader sense Luke or his use of the Force when he is shooting at the troopers. Plus Luke had to get "help" from Obi-Wan in the trench and in the MF. He got no such "help" here.
    And again, I doubt he could make use of the Force with the miniscule training he had at that point. In ESB it is different and Obi-Wan points this out. "This is a dangerous time for you.." This also refers back to Vader and how he turned. Obi-Wan says that he does not want to loose Luke in the same way as he lost Vader. This and what he said in ANH, that Vader was a pupil of his UNTIL he turned to evil, both indicate that being half-trained has the greatest risk of turning.

    First, how many did Luke kill? Han was shooting as well. There were five I think at the start and at least one was still alive when Luke ran.
    So four people. How many did Anakin kill? I would say at least ten times that.
    Second, Luke did not start the shooting, the troopers did. So he defended himself. Sure he was angry and that anger led to him taking needless risks. Anakin started the killing and he killed everyone, even those that could not defend themselves.
    Third, again Anakin had considerable more command of the Force than Luke did so he would have tapped into the dark side and used it to kill again and again. As Palpatine said "Your hate has made you powerfull." In RotJ Luke lost control and let his hate flow through him and that made him strong enough to beat Vader. But fortunantely he was able to bring him back from the brink.
    Lastly, Luke only shot at people that were shooting at him. He did not try to shoot Vader, who was standing right there. If hate was his primary motivation, why didn't he shoot the one who did kill Obi-Wan?


    But control is stated several time to be very important for a Jedi. They can't let their emotions run away with them because if they do, those emotions will control them. The Force is said to be able to control your actions and using the Dark Side will make you into an agent of evil.
    Sure there are other ways of turning, I think Dooku's turn did not involve him getting really angry and killing in hate. He seemed to want power and is what lured him to the dark side.
    And the whole of Palpatines plan in RotJ hinges on an emotional reaction. He lets Luke see the death of the rebellion and all his friends and it all has to do with him getting really angry, angry enough to use his hate to kill. And everything in RotJ says that had Luke killed Vader in hate then he would have turned. I can also think it is a little too pat but those are the rules. And according to what RotJ said, Anakin should have turned in AotC.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  9. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    To be honest, I think it makes a lot of sense. Even if a person has never heard of the Force or received any particular training, if they discovered their abilities and decided to consciously exploit those abilities to their benefit (but to the suffering of others) then I would consider them to have fallen to the Dark Side. It's not a matter of instruction (in my view) so much as it is a matter of intent and ability. A person without the ability to access the Force obviously can't fall to the Dark Side because they don't perceive it (either the ability to command it or be influenced by it) but a person who makes use of their advantages to suppress others I would argue has fallen.

    As far as the films show, though, only half of the Sith were ever Jedi before turning to the Dark Side. So it seems only logical that one doesn't necessarily have to learn about the Force to be inducted to the Dark Side -- the Dark Side can be one's very first glimpse of the Force.

    Regardless, Luke showed earlier in the film that he could use the Force. During his instruction, Obi-Wan tells him to let go of his conscious self and act on instinct. In fact, right before Vader comments on Luke being strong in the Force, we hear Ben's voice saying "Let go." And considering that Vader couldn't pick up on Leia's Force potential at all, Luke must have been doing something to give Vader such indications. As to Vader, well, obviously Obi-Wan isn't going to consider him his pupil anymore once he's turned. I'm not really sure how you draw the connection to his training though.

    But again, you're setting arbitrary number limits. And you said that Luke didn't start it, but he certainly had the power to finish it. He could have left on the ship as his friends were screaming at him to do instead of standing in the open, delaying them, as his friends reminded him there was nothing he could do. Luke was not defending himself -- he had a means of escape. And not getting on the Falcon was actually putting him in more danger.

    And, I should remind you, that the first person to die in the Tusken camp that night was not a Tusken -- it was Shmi. So Anakin's actions were hardly unprovoked. He could have entered the camp guns blazing, as it were, to rescue his mother. Instead, he snuck inside to try to get her out quietly. It's when she died so horribly and in so much pain (with himself utterly powerless to prevent it) that he quite understandably lost his ****.

    And who says that Luke wasn't shooting at Vader? A lot of the stormtroopers were positioned directly in front of Vader and Luke is hardly a military man. There's no guarantee he's going to get a precise hit each time. His face even has an angry expression and Leia's words on how it's too late and there's nothing he can do, are reflective of Luke's compromised emotional state.

    But see, here's the thing -- and here's where you really lose me: what if Vader hadn't blocked Luke's strikes? In ROTJ, Vader is blocking Luke's angry blows and it seems to me that you are saying that if any one of them had made contact and killed Vader, then Luke would have fallen. That just seems...well..dumb to me. Because then, the responsible agent is not so much Luke as it is Vader. Luke not falling to the Dark Side is completely dependent on Vader being able to block Luke's blows. If anyone of Luke's blows had made contact -- according to your scenario -- then Luke would have fallen. And that is why it seems arbitrary to me. Because the only difference between falling and staying in the light in your scenario depends on whether or not Vader can block Luke's strikes. To me, that reduces the power of a fall. A fall, in my opinion, must be a conscious choice. When you are out of your mind in grief and anger -- such as Anakin was in AOTC or Luke was in ANH -- you are too compromised to truly make an allegiance, to accept the Dark Side. That's why, to me, it's so important that Palpatine stops and talks to Luke, imploring him to strike down his father. It is at this moment then -- when Vader is at his mercy -- and Luke can make a choice that I feel is important.

    An emotional reaction can be used to manipulate to a certain extent -- to create a more vulnerable frame of mind -- but it can't override rational thought completely.

    If Anakin had turned under similar circumstances as in AOTC then, quite frankly, I wouldn't consider him a villain. Someone who had committed a terrible crime, certainly -- but something that even the most stable and well-adjusted person would be liable to do, given the circumstances.
    minnishe, Visivious Drakarn and Samnz like this.
  10. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Master star 3

    Sep 4, 2012
    Others have already responded to the course of Anakin's fall, so I'll skip that.

    Now: Do you really think the OT gave us a clear view on how a Jedi falls?

    I mean, Yoda clearly says "A Jedi uses his powers for defense, never for attack".
    Yet Luke is seen to be attacking numerous times. He killed troopers after Ben's death, he was the one who first ignited his lightsaber and makes the first strike in his ESB duel, he even attacked Vader and the Emperor after that had directly said "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey to the dark side will be complete".
    Numerous attacks on Luke's side and still the OT claims he didn't fall (and was still a Jedi).

    Additionally, just like Anakin, Luke has to make a very conscious decision in the OT. Palpatine clearly asked Luke to kill Vader after he had defeated Vader.
    But Luke didn't.

    That's why he didn't turn. He made a decision, just like Anakin did.
    Anakin's decision was selfish and, by our standards, evil - but that's kind of in the job's description of a Sith, isn't it? And that's why he fell and Luke didn't.
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    I think this is what I said. A person has to be able to feel and use the Force in order for this person to be able to fall in the first place. Even if they don't know about the dark side as such, if they use the Force in destructive, hurtfull ways or allow their hate to flow through them, they will fall.
    But, in regards what you said below, if a person knows he has this power and he hates a group of people and decides to kill them and this power allows him to kill them all. Would you view this person as fallen?

    The Dark Side is a part of the Force so how can you learn to use it without learning to use the Force?
    If your first Force lesson is to do the Force choke, which is regarded as a dark side power, you are still learning to use the Force, just a dark side of it.
    A number of Force powers are used by both Jedi and Sith, like moving things with your mind.
    A person trained as a Sith from start isn't really fallen as he or she was never a jedi. But they do use the Force.

    In ANH Obi-Wan said Vader a pupil of his UNTIL he turned to evil. If Vader had become a full jedi Knight and was no longer Obi-Wans pupil when he turned then Obi-Wans dialogue does not match.
    If a person says "Mr Jones was an employe of mine until he died in a car crash." To me, it says quite clearly that Mr Jones was working for this person when he died.
    Vader says much the same in ANH, "When I left you, I was but a learner.." Again an indication that Vaders' training was not complete. In ESB, Obi-Wan makes the same point, that Luke can feel the Force but can't control it. That this is a danger and that Luke could be lost the same way as Vader was lost.

    Numbers do matter in court for ex. Murdering one or two people and murdering 20-30 people are usually viewed a bit differently. Aslo many times in our world, killing women and children are viewed as worse than killing adult men.
    But the main argument to me is that Luke could not use the Force enough to turn.
    Had he acted like this in ESB or RotJ then perhaps.

    But the point is still that Anakin did start the attack, he had provocation and he was understandable upset but he started the attack on the Tuskens. Luke did not, he was shot at and shot back.

    Luke was able to shot at the panel that closed the door, this panel is quite a bit smaller than Vader, so he is a quite good shot. Vader was standing there and not moving very much and Luke had a clear shot at him several times but he didn't take it. Which shows that Luke limited his fire to those that were trying to kill him. Anakin killed anyone he came across, regardless if they were any threat to him.

    But, in your version, Palpatine's plan makes little to no sense. It totally hinges on Luke not getting lucky and scoring a killing blow before he could talk to him. If Luke had acted just a little faster or Palpatine had been a little slower, Luke could have killed Vader, not fallen and all of Palpatine's plans would have been ruined. If Luke at any point in the fight had killed Vader before Palpatine could say something, it all would have been for naugth.
    Also, say Luke had killed Vader, Palpatine wasn't offering him anything. He more or less said Luke would be his new slave. Luke would be totally angry at Palpatine, not just for getting him to kill his father but also for all the other things. Why would he submit to Palpatine? I would think he would try and kill Palpatine. But still Palpatine was confident that as soon as Luke killed Vader, he would have him.

    A choice made in anger is still a choice. It might be poorly considered or influenced by strong feelings but still a choice. We train ourselves to control our feelings so that we don't act on every little impulse or whim.

    To the jedi, this is even more important, they can't allow themselves to let their emotions run away with them.

    Exactly, so even if you get really angry it is still your choice if you decide to kill people in response to your anger. Which is what Palpatine was doing, he placed Luke in a situation where he would get really angry, angry enough to attack.


    To me, wheter or not I would see him as a villain depends on what he does afterwards.
    But a question to you, say that Anakin had heard about his mothers's death while on Coruscant and say that he was in some public place. If he had totally lost it and killed all those around him, would that change how you view him as opposed to how it happened in AotC?

    A big point is made that the Jedi must learn control. They have great power and so they must have greater control over themselves. Take Superman, he has enormous power and if he looses it and strikes out in ager, he could destroy cities and kill millions. Thus he has to have great self-control.
    The Dark Side is a danger to the Jedi. If they get angry and that anger flows through them, this can poison and twist their minds. It can also be seductive, a quick and easy way to power.

    But I think we have gotten a bit off-topic with this.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Couple of things.
    1) "A jedi uses his POWERS for defense.." On the DS Luke still could not really use the power of the Force so that is out.
    2) In ESB, in the cave Luke brings his weapons even though told not to. He ignites his sword and makes the attack. And Yoda clearly says that this was a failiure.
    3) In RotJ Luke attacks Vader and he gets close to the edge but pulls him self back. When Vader threatens Leia, Luke gets really angry and attacks again but still he is able to pull himself back and not go all the way.
    Only then does he become a Jedi, he was put to the test and passed it.

    Bye for now
    Old Stoneface
  13. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    That's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that a person can fall to the Dark Side even if they've never had any formal instruction in the Force. All they need is the capacity to use it. A person who doesn't have that potential can't fall but a person who does have such a potential is susceptible But the important thing isn't that they specifically use that power to harm another -- it's only that they have the potential to do so. An individual who chooses to assassinate others (say with a knife) for his own personal gain and has Force potential is of the Dark Side, in my opinion. Even if he or she employed a rather mundane method (stabbing) in their killings. For me, it's not so much about using the power as making the choice. Sure, to fall to the Dark Side, you have to be Force sensitive. But it's more important that you choose.

    For me, knowing you have the power isn't as important as making the choice to hurt others. It's the choice to hurt others to deliberately and consciously place your own desires above theirs that makes it a fall to the Dark Side.

    Killing can make one fall, but it's the frame of mind that really matters -- not the means. At least, in my opinion.

    What I mean is, you don't need a neutral introduction to the Force to fall to the Dark Side. One's very first introduction can be to the Force. You don't need formal training in the Force before you fall to the Dark Side. The Dark Side can be one's first and only interaction with the Force.

    All that shows, though, is that Obi-Wan considered Anakin his student until he repudiated those teachings and fell to the Dark Side. That doesn't really say anything about Anakin's status though. My undergraduate mentor still considers me to be her student even though I've graduated and when we talk, we still maintain that relationship. Additionally, given that Anakin was not a Master when he fell while Obi-Wan was, that obviously implies that Anakin still had a great deal of learning to do -- there were still things that a Master could teach him. If Obi-Wan had said Anakin was still his padawan (a rank), then yeah that would be odd. But student or pupil is a pretty general term.

    When Anakin turned, he hadn't obtained Mastery, he was more inexperienced and still learning. He wasn't the Master in their relationship because there were still things that Obi-Wan could teach him that he hadn't learned. Anakin is essentially saying in ANH that he has now surpassed Obi-Wan where he recognizes he used to be inferior in terms of knowledge.

    Certainly while a student is learning there's a greater possibility that they will fall since they don't yet have all the information they need and are more susceptible to outside influences.

    Now, see, that doesn't make sense. If numbers matter so much, then why would Luke be at risk of falling in ROTJ when the only person he might kill is Anakin/Vader (and maybe Palpatine)? He killed more stormtroopers in that hanger bay than there were people in the throne room. And I think you'll certainly agree with me that whatever their crimes (if any) those stormtroopers had certainly committed less evil than Anakin/Vader. Plus, I don't see why killing women is worse than killing men, personally. Children, yes, because they are not developed enough to be held accountable for their actions or fully understand a situation, but not women. Women are equally intelligent and equally as good or evil as men. And given that women can fire a blaster or use the Force with the same ease as men, I don't see really see any issues with physical strength. To say nothing of the fact that Tuskens are aliens and may not have nearly as sexually dimorphic of a species.

    But Luke had been granted access to the Force in ANH. He was aware of it -- he knew what the Dark Side and Light Side were and he had already begun to make use of it. So much so that by ESB, he could reach out and bring his lightsaber to himself although we never saw Obi-Wan teach him such an ability.

    As I said earlier, though, the means through which Luke kills are not as important as his frame of mind in killing when it comes to the Dark Side. It doesn't matter if Luke uses a Force choke, a blaster, a knife, or a lightsaber. What matters is his frame of mind when he kills, in my opinion -- that he deliberately chooses to hurt others when he is in a rational state of mind. He wasn't in ANH -- he had just watched Obi-Wan die -- so he didn't fall. It was an emotional reaction, sure, and he was angry and upset, but he didn't make a choice in a rational state of mind.

    But Luke had the option to run. Yes, those stormtroopers were firing upon him. But it's not self-defense if standing and fighting risks getting you more injured than running away would, as in Luke's case it was. Essentially, if you are on someone's property (an open field) and they start shooting at you and you have a vehicle right next to you that your friends are screaming at for you to get into and out of danger, it's not self-defense if you stand out in the open to return fire rather than getting in the vehicle and getting the heck out of there, (as Luke's friends were pleading for him to do).

    In Luke's case, he may not have started the fight, but it was not the stormtroopers who provoked it. Luke was on a military installation and the stormtroopers' commander was standing right behind them having just dueled one of the intruders.
    In Anakin's case, he started the fight, but he was not responsible for provoking it.
    There's various degrees of responsibility there, but in both cases, I would say that neither are at risk for falling to the Dark Side because they are in an altered, irrational frame of mind when the fighting begins.

    There's no way to be certain about that because once Luke starts shooting, the stormtooper standing directly in front of Vader goes down. You can see Vader walking away in the background initially to step on Obi-Wan's robes, but Luke's ability to shoot him is clearly blocked. Then, the door closes and there's more firing (a lot of it goes wildly off to the side). And as the door closes, you can actually see a lot of fire heading straight towards Vader. Once the door is closed, then, Luke kills one more trooper, hears Obi-Wan's voice, then runs onto the ship.

    Plus, you can't say that Luke only killed those who were a thread to him because if he were worried about getting shot at, then he wouldn't be standing still out in the open. But Luke, as I've noted before, was irrational and angry which is why he continued to stand there and risk getting shot at rather than moving (making it harder for them to hit him) and getting into cover.

    But who says that Palpatine cares whether Luke kills Vader all that much? Just because Vader is dead does not mean that Palpatine cannot turn Luke. And if Luke tries to kill Palpatine, in turn, I don't doubt that Palpatine thinks he can stop Luke and kill him in turn. It's not necessarily true that just because Vader is dead, Luke can't be turned. He needs to convince Luke to join him and Vader's death -- while no guarantee of Luke's fall -- can be a means to an end. A way of further persuading Luke to join him. Once Vader is dead, Palpatine has another card to play -- he can play on Luke's guilt and ask how he could really be a Jedi when he killed the father he wanted to save. That, to me, would be a much more interesting turn than simply Luke gets angry and boom he's a Sith.

    Additionally, I should point out that Palpatine's plan doesn't necessarily have to be perfect. The man was extremely arrogant by this point -- such as his belief that he was quite safe from the Rebels. It's not unlikey that he could believe that he would be able to convince Luke to submit as he hasn't really had anyone stand up to him in the past twenty years.

    The problem I have with your scenario is this:

    In situation A: Luke gets angry, lashes out with a blow fully intending to kill, Vader blocks it -- Luke is not a Sith
    In situation B: Luke gets angry, lashes out with a blow fully intending to kill, Vader doesn't block it and is killed -- Luke is a Sith

    It takes away the emphasis on the individual at risk of falling (Luke) and instead leaves Luke's status as a Sith fully in the hands of Vader. You're basically saying that the only reason Luke didn't fall in ROTJ was because Vader managed to block his strikes. Because is there any question that as they were dueling after Luke screamed "Never!" that Luke was attacking with intent to kill?

    To me, none of those moments were pivot points. The only point where Luke could have fallen was when Palpatine stopped him and told him to kill Vader and his journey to the Dark Side would be complete. Because there, Luke could think -- he had his faculties in place to make a choice -- and that was the one that mattered.

    I would say that when one is so compromised that they no longer have the ability to think rationally (say...after the death of a loved one) that such a choice cannot meaningfully reflect a person's character or morality. There's a reason legal systems take into account one's frame of mind when determining one's culpability and the sentence for one's crimes after all.

    Because we are human -- that means we have emotions and learning to control them is important. But no one can be 100% successful or they would not be human. To suggest that would mean that a person is invincible and has no weaknesses. To me, that would really denigrate the human aspect of Star Wars.

    There's a world of difference between acting on every little impulse or whim to having a violent reaction to a traumatic event.

    Thus my point: you can use emotions to manipulate, but the person still has to be rational when they are making the choice. A person who attacks and kills someone who is torturing their child is not falling into evil so much as they are having a normal response to extreme stress.

    If some cult on Coruscant kidnapped his mother and tortured her to death the same way (for about a month) then yes, I would expect Anakin to react the same way and I would view him the same way. The thing about Anakin's mother's death that's so difficult to get around is that Anakin doesn't know who specifically is responsible. He doesn't know if the men tortured her to death, if the women helped (or were the primary instigators if in Tusken culture females torture females) or if it was some of the children -- if doing so is a right of passage of sorts. The thing is, though, his mother was tortured to death. And given that she was in a shabby tent, there's little question that everyone in that camp knew about her and what was being done to her. I'm not surprised, then, that he attacked the Tusken camp so indiscriminately.

    Now, if Anakin had purposefully gone and hunted down Tuskens all across the planet just for being Tuskens, that would be a bit different, but I find his actions were more the result of being unable to have a specific person to target his rage against and the extreme level of irrationality that such a state would induce. He'd be more likely to view them all as responsible since he didn't know the specific person involved and the rest (at best) did not help her or may have actively participated in her suffering.

    Jedi should have control. But if they had perfect control, they would not be human and the story would lose all meaning. Superman is not human, for one, but even he is not above extreme actions when he is emotionally unbalanced. He goes back in time just to save Lois from death, after all. The thing of it is -- everyone has a breaking point. I don't expect characters in fiction to be able to endure extremely traumatic situations unaffected -- that would cease to make them interesting to me.
  14. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    To PiettsHat,

    We have dragged this thread very off-topic but and my answers have gotten way too long.
    Some comments and some quick answers to what you said.

    The Force is a supernatural and in part external power. You can use it but it also uses you.
    There is also an evil side to this power. And here evil isn't just a value judgment or a abstract concept, it is very real.
    The cave on Dagobah is a place where the Dark Side is made manifest. "A room of Evil it is."

    When Luke enters it, he is cautioned not to bring his weapons but he does so. In there he is confronted by Vader and he reacts by attacking him. rather normal wouldn't you say? He attacks and cuts of Vader's head. Yoda later calls this a failure.
    So clearly a jedi must not use his powers in an aggressive way. Being aggressive is the path to the Dark side, whether you intend it or not.

    This tells me quite clearly that a Jedi can't go off on a hate filled rampage, or loose themselves to their rage.

    In ESB, Vader at first tested to see if fear could get to Luke, it didn't and Vader said as much. Then he tried to get Luke to release his anger.
    So in both films, the Sith try to turn Luke by getting him mad. I must think this is for a reason.

    To me, what these two films say is that if you use the dark side of the Force, and you do that if you allow your rage, fear or hatred to fuel your powers.
    Then you are exposing yourself to the Dark side and then the dark side can take over and turn you into an agent of evil.

    To your comment's;
    But doesn't this describe Anakin in AotC? He felt pain, horrible pain and terrible loss. And he decided to make ALL the Tuskens pay for what they had done. So he attacked and killed every last one he could find. He put his own needs for revenge over anything else and they all paid the price.
    I am certainly not defending what the Tuskens that kidnapped Shmi did, it was a horrible thing. But that does not justify what Anakin did.
    And speaking about this, Anakin said he killed every last Tusken in that camp, and he knew he killed women and children.
    This to me suggest a methodical search and systematic slaughter. It would also include Anakin chasing after any Tusken that would try to run away.
    To me, this does not fit with someone so out of their mind insane that they don't know what they are doing. Such a person would just scream and swing wildly at anything he sees. I do not see such a person searching every tent or running after those that tries to flee.
    And how long would this slaughter take? The camp had some twenty tents, searching every tent and killing all those inside would take some time, maybe 20 minutes or half an hour or even more.

    I think you misunderstood me. I meant that if Shmi had died the same way as she did but Anakin wasn't on Tatooine when it happened. Instead he was sitting in some café on Coruscant and got a letter where it said "Your mother was kidnapped and tortured to death by the Tusken raiders, sorry."
    And he got enraged and killed all those in the same café, people that had nothing at all to do with what happened.
    He still got enraged so he did not make a rational choice to kill those people so is it the same as in AotC?

    In the film Palpatine says that only TOGETHER can they turn Luke to the Dark side, so alone, Palpatine alone can not do it.
    Second, Vader is a good and useful apprentice, it doesn't make much sense for Palpatine to risk that if he wasn't feeling very certain that he could get Luke. If Luke gets angry enough to fight Vader and kills him, then he falls and Palpatine has him. If Luke won't fight Vader kills him. If Luke fights but looses, Vader kills him. Any scenario is win for Palpatine.
    If Luke can kill Vader and not turn, Palpatine has gained nothing. Unlike Anakin, Palpatine doesn't have anything Luke wants, except to die in a horrible way. He can not offer Luke anything. Luke would in all likelihood just attack him, knowing he has lost everything.

    But is five seconds enough to become rational? Luke has been getting steadily angrier on the DS2, seeing the rebel ships get blown up and really hating on Palpatine. He starts to fight, calms down, then is forced to fight again, the hides and finally he totally looses it when Vader threatens Leia.
    He swings wildly at Vader, overpowers him, cuts of his hand and has him at his mercy, but doesn't kill him. Even with a few seconds pause I would not say Luke is totally rational given all he has been trough.
    And here I see a flaw in your reasoning. How rational must you be for the choice to matter?
    If a person comes home and finds a rapist killing his daughter, just giving him five seconds to calm down would not really make him totally rational in my view.
    A person that has been through severe trauma doesn't have to become totally calm one minute later.
    And what about insane people that can use the Force? If such a person is never rational but can still command the Force and uses it in whatever evil way that strikes their fancy, could they never turn?
    I would not say Anakin in RotS is totally rational either. His mind is warped by fear and a conflict of interest. His bad dreams plague him and I don't think the choice he made was a very calm and rational choice.

    To me you get a pretty arbitrary judgment here, if you are only this rational then you can kill in hate and not turn but if you are more than this rational then you do fall. To me a choice is a choice, unless you are mind controlled. And the end result is what matters or rather I interpret the films to say that the end result is what matters. If you use the Dark Side of Force to murder in hate, that is enough to make you fall. Trying is not enough, at least not immediately. If a person has a deadly hate against something I would imagine this would poison their mind and make them susceptible to the dark side.

    I am a teacher and have many former students and both I and they are aware that I am no longer their teacher and they are no longer my pupils. I don't really call them "My former pupils" when I talk to them, I use their names. But I can say "He was a pupil of mine two years ago." or "she is one of my former pupils." or something like that.

    In ESB Obi-Wan said this:
    And Yoda said:
    Luke was half trained and both mentioned Vader as a comparison.
    To me, this clearly indicate that Vader had not completed his training and he was in a position similar to Luke.
    And Yoda's comment again brings up how taking the quick and easy path will make you into an agent of evil, even if that is not your intent.

    To sum up.
    In ANH Luke could not really use the Force to any great extent and not enough to fall. Also the level of rage and anger was far smaller than Anakins in AotC. In RotJ I think the end result is what matters, not the intent. Luke needs to kill Vader, not just try and fail.
    But even just getting angry nad filled with hate is dangerous. And Palpatine comments on this "The hate is swelling within you now."
    If you use the dark side to murder then you do fall. And Luke was using the dark side in the last part of his fight, he did not kill Vader though.
    I should add that turning is not absolute, you can turn back as Vader showed. So the dark side can be rejected.

    But we have dragged this off-topic discussion on long enough so I suggest we'll agree to disagree.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  15. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    Samuel Vimes

    Sure, we can agree to disagree. :)

    In the end, I think the biggest problem I have with your version of a fall comes down to what I perceive to be the implications of it, which I outlined here:

    In situation A: Luke gets angry, lashes out with a blow fully intending to kill, Vader blocks it -- Luke is not a Sith
    In situation B: Luke gets angry, lashes out with a blow fully intending to kill, Vader doesn't block it and is killed -- Luke is a Sith

    If you believe that losing control of oneself and attacking in a rage with intent to kill is enough to turn one to the Dark Side, then Luke fell as well as Anakin. Why? Because his blows were aimed to kill during his fight with Vader. And he would have killed him had Vader not be fast and strong enough to block it. To me, that really negates a lot of meaning in the Saga, so I choose not to interpret it that way.

    I would say that, once Palpatine intervenes, Luke is not completely rational, but he has calmed down enough not to be in a blind rage. He has enough control over himself to realize what he is doing and what it could mean. That he pauses to stare down at his hand and then look down at Vader is indicative of this. It's similar with Anakin in ROTS as he kneels before Palpatine -- he isn't 100% emotionally balanced when he submits, but he's calm and rational enough to realize what his choice means -- he isn't in hysterics, a blind rage, or having a panic attack.

    In regards to what Anakin did, in no way am I calling it justice, but I'm saying it doesn't make him an evil person to have committed so horrible a crime because he was completely irrational when he did it and had just endured horrific trauma. He wasn't in a sound state of mind and so I can feel sympathy for his situation while I recognize that what he did was wrong.

    I just can't see his actions as a methodical search precisely for the reason that you see it as such -- he killed everyone. If he hadn't -- if he had only targeted certain individuals -- such as the guards to Shmi's tent, then I would see him as more rational. But it seems to me that he just went ballistic, and the lack of places to hide (given that the camp was out in the open) coupled with Anakin's Force abilities and the Tuskens' lack of technology means it wouldn't take him long to kill them. Certainly not when he's in such a rage. And I doubt he would have searched the tents -- he would have flattened them, if anything.

    If Anakin wasn't on Tatooine, then of course I would feel differently -- because the circumstances would be entirely different. The level of trauma, for one, would be minimized -- he wouldn't be holding her broken body and feel her slowly die as he was helplessly standing by, unable to save her. Furthermore, if he was on Coruscant, the people around him wouldn't be responsible -- they wouldn't have held her against her will for over a month and listened to her scream every day as she was tortured while doing nothing to save her. Also, his reaction would likely depend on whether or not he experienced dreams for a month-long period before her death and whether or not he heard the people who kidnapped her described as "vicious, mindless monsters."

    Additionally, why would you expect him to react the same? Who says he would even believe the letter in the first place?
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  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    There's a lot of steps in the process of Falling. Luke fell a little bit, but "arrested his fall" so to speak, when he, faced with what he was becoming (which Emperor Palpatine so kindly and counterproductively) pointed out (Your hate has made you powerful) - he firmly rejected the Dark Side.

    Anakin slipped a bit (possibly a bit more than Luke) - but he realized that what he had done was wrong to at least some degree) and spent most of the Clone Wars defending the Republic and at least trying to do better. He only completed his Fall in Revenge of the Sith.
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  17. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012

    But if intent is enough to fall then Luke should have fallen at the start of the fight in RotJ.
    Palpatine was goading him and goading him, eventually Luke used the Force to grab his saber and swung at him but Vader blocked him.
    At that point Luke was angry but nowhere near as angry as after Vader threatened Leia. He used the Force in a controlled way and even paused before trying to kill Palpatine. Also Palpatine was just sitting there and not attacking him. So Luke seemed fairly rational there. And Palpatine was telling him to do something and he did just that. "I am defenceless, take your weapon and strike me down with all of your hate."
    If we assume that Vader had not blocked him and Palpatine had not had time to defend himself, would Luke have fallen?

    Note, I do think Luke got closer and closer by getting angry and using his anger and hate in an agressive way. But he never did kill.
    Had he done that, then he would have gone fully over the edge. So he crossed the line but pulled himself back before he killed.

    About Anakin, the reason I ask is that you seem to argue that if a jedi gets totally enraged and lashes out, it does not matter who he kills or how many. The jedi will still not fall, it has to be a rational choice. So if Anakin is just told his mother is dead and gets as mad and angry as he was in AotC and kills all around him then it should not matter where he is or who he kills. Say that he has a Force vision of his mothers death and feels all her pain and when he wakes up he goes kill crazy. Say for ex when he was on Naboo. Would he fall or not?
    I just have a hard time thinking that jedi can go totally kill crazy and kill any amount of people and not fall since they did not make a rational choice to kill all those people.

    In ESB I got the sense that there was much emphasis on "Control", that a jedi must not loose him or herself to anger or hate because if he or she does so, then they will fall. So it does not have to be a rational, deliberate choice. If you loose control and use the Force in hate and anger then you can fall, esp if you use it to murder people.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  18. Ananta Chetan

    Ananta Chetan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 11, 2013
    Is it feasible to imagine that Palpatine purposely allowed Anakin's immolation in order to cap his power and secure the longevity of his supremacy? As has been mentioned, GL stated that the damaged Vader only achieved 80% of Sidious' level of power.

    Sidious declares to Yoda that Vader will become more powerful than either of them. Anakin discloses in his conversation with Padme on Mustafar before his duel with Ob-Wan that he already had the ambition to overthrow Palpatine.

    So, if Palpatine was perhaps at least partially aware of these variables at play, his actions to go to Mustafar to rescue Anakin when he did and not before may also have been intentional.
  19. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    Did Sidious really believe that he would be able to find a way to become so powerful that he could live forever, or was all that stuff just a ruse to bring Anakin over to the dark side?

    If the former was the case, I can see Sidious wanting a limited Anakin as his apprentice. Basically a hit man, an enforcer, but not someone who was ever going to challenge him in his path to eternal domination. However, if it's the latter, I don't see why Sidious would want a limited apprentice. He would want the most powerful one available as his main objective would ultimately be to advance the cause of the Sith Order.

    Sidious's attempt to replace Anakin with Luke in ROTJ would suggest that it was in fact the latter that he had in mind.
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  20. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    The problem with Anakin's fall, and the confusion that may be found with Luke's later* near fall really comes down to how Lucas had it all pan out in ROTS. Prior to ROTS we have no firm foundation to what we should expect to see when someone falls to the darkside. In ROTS it is, of course, a conscious decision which leads to yellow eyes and complete subversion of individual to phsycotic killer - in one quick step. Wow! Way to go with demonstrating how good people end up doing bad things eh? That's how it works is it? One minute a good person doing good things (mostly) the next an evil, rampaging ego-maniac.

    That transition was utterly unecessary if the story had accepted the killing of the sandpeople as the beginning of his turn, you know - as a process rather than the instant 'just add water (an oath of fealty) and kaboom, evil yellow eyed Sith'. He breaks down in front of Padmé because he knows that what he has done is wrong. Plain wrong. No excuses. But, he doesn't go to the Jedi and address it, he - in some way - justifies what he has done, probably with the advice of Palpatine. When he kills Dooku in cold blood he knows that what he has done is wrong - but again justifies the act as a means to an end.

    Until we saw Lucas' depiction of Anakin's fall there was no reason to believe that Luke's fall would be an instantaneous shift from normal human being to yellow eyed, egomaniac Sith. The choice to cut down Vader at that moment would be the first step on a slippery path of justifications and giving in to emotional responses. Luke recognised that, he understood what the Jedi had been telling him. His real enemy was not the figure of Darth Vader but his own 'Darth Vader' self, waiting to be given free reign; his own emotional responses and personalised righteousness.

    The more I look at the PT the more I see Lucas 'falling in love' with the character of Anakin (as authors do with characters) so that he cannot bring himself to have Anakin fall by his own volition and actually become the persona that is Vader.

    * later in an in-universe paradigm, but actually pre-existing Anakin's ROTS fall
  21. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 25, 2008

    Palpatine did have something that Luke wanted. Vader. More importantly, the trap he had set for the Rebel Alliance forces and Luke's friends for the Battle of Endor also affected Luke, emotionally. Luke had attacked Vader even before the Rebel Alliance could be destroyed. Just the threat of the destruction of the Alliance, along with Leia and Han, set off Luke. He had not lost everything at the time of his attack.

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 17, 2003
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  23. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 2, 2000
    How is Anakin's turn not his choice? He deliberately sides with Sidious out of greed. There's no getting around that fact.

    Choices are made
  24. Bacrof

    Bacrof Jedi Master

    Aug 20, 2002

    He deliberately sides with Sidious out of desperation, not greed. It all stems from his desire to save Padme from the fate his mother suffered.

    But it was his choice and he did take it to a shocking extreme.
  25. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 2, 2000
    Anakin is driven by fear and that fear stems from greed.
    Why is he desperate to save Padmé? Because he fears losing her. He wants to keep her and everyone else that he cares about in his life, regardless of the cost. That's possessive behavior, a k a greed.

    Greed can be a powerful ally
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